Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[CLC]

Originally Posted by mr.x

REQUEST FOR PICTURES:

Some pictures of LRT construction on a road similar to Broadway Street and 10th Avenue would be nice.

Though I have no pictures of the construction, the LRT construction through the entire Yuen Long main road of Hong Kong, happened just more than 20 years ago, has forever changed the historic corridor.

Yuen Long main road is exactly an artery road through that particular region.
After construction, 6-lane Yuen Long main road has become mostly 4-lane, pedestrian sidewalk were narrowed. Another funny fact is LRT is the only mode of rail transit that is losing money each year in Hong kong, even with its 350,000 ridership everyday

[CLC]

Hong kong's Yuen Long main road is actually quite similar dense with Broadway

25+ years ago (by arba5000 @ Uwants forum)


Modern Yuen Long main road (hkrail.net)

[red-paladin]

I'm really concerned that Broadway sure wouldn't have much room left for all the cars and parking spaces. The only reply from the LRT squad so far has been "so what, that's called traffic calming", which is more of a smart ass remark than a counter point.

[amor de cosmos]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I'm really concerned that Broadway sure wouldn't have much room left for all the cars and parking spaces. The only reply from the LRT squad so far has been "so what, that's called traffic calming", which is more of a smart ass remark than a counter point.

i wonder if they want lrt just because broadway was used by trams at one time. maybe that's all there is to it and that's why they're selectively quoting their stats. i just read that sarkozy is committing 35 billion euros for transport in paris, including an "automatic" metro line. will have to look into it more closely to see if it's like skytrain.

[WarrenC12]

What is the current 99 B-Line capacity compared to the theoretical max of LRT? Are the 99 B-Line buses primarily diesel or electric trolley right now? I simply can't get my mind around the idea that LRT strictly from Commercial & Broadway to UBC is somehow an "upgrade" on what we have now.

[mr.x]

Iunno about the capacity, but the 99 B-Line as is carries 60,000 passengers per weekday. Just for a bit of contrast, that's more than some of the riderships for TTC streetcar lines and it's only a little bit less than the Millennium Line's 75,000 weekday ridership.

All 3 B-Lines, the 97,98, and 99, are diesel. None are trolleys. The 99 suppossedly has 10% of the entire regional bus fleet, about 130-articulated buses.

[amor de cosmos]

doesn't say skytrain technology specifically, but...

A driverless, 24-hour, regional metro system, in the shape of a giant figure eight, will connect Paris to its troubled suburbs by the year 2020, President Nicolas Sarkozy announced today....

...In his speech opening the exhibition, President Sarkozy promised a ten year programme, starting in 2010 or 2011, to improve rail links between Paris and its two airports and hundreds of satellite towns. He offered Euros 21bn for the "Big Eight": a 130 kilometres (80 miles), driverless, 24-hour metro system in the form of two large loops, joining across the centre of the city.

The northern loop would have a branch to Charles de Gaulle airport and would also – with heavy symbolism - pass through the troubled towns of Montfermeil and Clichy-sous-Bois, where the 2005 riots began. The southern loop would link the centre of the city to, amongst other places, Orly Airport and Versailles. President Sarkozy also promised another Euros 14bn for the extension and re-equipment of existing Metro, regional metro (RER) and suburban railway lines.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...il-plan-for-a-greater-paris-1676196.html

[DKaz]

Interstate Ave. in Portland OR, probably the same density as Broadway between Alma and MacDonald. LRT would likely see the elimination of parking on one if not both sides of Broadway between Alma and Trafalgar. Between Trafalgar all the way to Commercial Dr, they can likely maintain one 10 foot wide travel lane and a 8 foot wide parking lane on each side. The trains themselves will have to be narrow at 8 foot wide to squeeze the LRT right away to no more than 20 to 24 feet at the most. There's going to be a lot of people parking on side streets around MacDonald. Just stick with Skytrain. I can see LRT running down the middle of 41st Ave Ave or Main or King George Hwy or even Hastings or whatever, but not down Broadway.

Photo by Matt Strieby, 06/18/06
http://www.westcoastroads.com/oregon/portland.html


Photo by Darrell Clarke
http://light-rail.blogspot.com/2008_07_01_archive.html

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What is the current 99 B-Line capacity compared to the theoretical max of LRT? Are the 99 B-Line buses primarily diesel or electric trolley right now? I simply can't get my mind around the idea that LRT strictly from Commercial & Broadway to UBC is somehow an "upgrade" on what we have now.

Right now there's a bus every 2 minutes = 3600 ppphd with a trip time of 30 to 50 minutes depending on traffic.
They could bring in a bus every minute if absolutely necessary = 7200 ppphd.

LRT would run at no greater than 3 minute headways = 6400 ppphd (assuming 4 car MK-I sized trainsets, could be 9600ppphd if they went 3-car lengths or 12800 if they went 4-car lengths), the trip would take an estimated 28 minutes (assuming maximum speed of 50km/h as LRTs have to obey speed limits of the road, and time from deceleration of train to stop at stations to acceleration at one minute per station. The time assumes full signal prioritization for LRT down the entire corridor).

Skytrain at 2 minute peak headways = 15000 ppphd (assuming all 4-car MKII or 6-car MKI train), the trip would take an estimated 21 minutes assuming 40km/h average speed (Expo Line's average speed is 42km/h)

I would say instead of wasting money on LRT, just build a No 3. Road style busway down Broadway, the 99 B-Line can more or less consistently get to UBC from Broadway in 30 minutes at a fraction of the cost, even if they say want to convert the 99 to articulated electric trolleys which will result in faster acceleration and will handle the hill up 10th Ave a lot better, give the 99 full signal prioritization at any and all intersections and you're golden.

Better yet, build Skytrain.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by DKaz

I would say instead of wasting money on LRT, just build a No 3. Road style busway down Broadway, the 99 B-Line can more or less consistently get to UBC from Broadway in 30 minutes at a fraction of the cost, even if they say want to convert the 99 to articulated electric trolleys which will result in faster acceleration and will handle the hill up 10th Ave a lot better, give the 99 full signal prioritization at any and all intersections and you're golden.

Better yet, build Skytrain.

Let me say I'm fully in support of Skytrain, but just trying to understand the LRT mindset.

If you are concerned about disruption (and cost), then I don't have too much of a problem if they simply upgrade what is in place already like you indicate: dedicated (or in rush hour anyway) lanes, priority signals, and a fleet of diesel or better yet electric articulated buses. Apologies to UBC of course.

But then I would expect full steam ahead on the Expo-Line extensions, maybe push it to Langley with the "excess" budget available in the $14b plan.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Think about how bad vancouver drivers are already, now think about adding an LRT on one of the busiest streets in Vancouver. Think of the accidents! How many delays will that cause, not to mention even if the LRT is not involved in an accident it has no way to drive around it.

I can predict that deadly accident involving LRT and other road vehicles on Broadway would be guaranteed. In Hong kong, even a number of LRT drivers have been killed.

[cornholio]

Prague is planing a new metro line, likely automated, in any case it should start construction around 2010 or 2011 at the latest(not finalized but Prague has a good history of carrying through with its plans).

Its Metro system is continually expanded, though its not automated because construction started in the 70's(though there have been studies on the feasibility of upgrading it to a automatic metro but its not worth the costs anymore). Most recently they added 2 stations in 2004, 1 station in 2006 and 3 stations 2008. There are many other plans to expand it though im not sure the timeline right now with the entire new line getting ready to be built.

Oh and yes they have a extensive tram system also, but that tram system is supported by the 59km long metro, with 3 lines that carries 1.5 million passengers daily, and a regional rail network serving the metro thats 515km long, 11 lines and has 158 stations(unlike the WCE its part of the same fare as the rest of the city transit) and im not sure what the ridership is but it will be high(my guess would be maybe 250,000-500,000 a day?).
Than they also have the tram system that FEEDS the metro and train stops, it has 142km of track, 560km route length, 34 lines, 900 street cars and carries just under 1 million people a day(352 mill a year). Also cant forget about the bus network, not sure of the ridership but it will be up there and the fleet probably is close to size to Vancouver(by my estimation). And since im on this subject I should add that they have a extensive 24-7 service which serves the entire city very well(bit unrelated). Also as far as traffic calming, well the expansion of the highway network within the city is the reall impressive part, but I have alreadyy mentioned that around here many times(obviously im a bit of a homer for the city, sorry)
Prague has a metro population of 1.9mill, city of 1.2mill, fairly close to Vancouver in population.


EDIT: There actually have been new tram lines opened so I got that wrong, but the Metro also is continually being expanded.
just for kicks here is a video of the new tram line recently built, again not something you can do down Broadway, and the second half of the video is a 6.2% grade which as you can see significantly slows the trams down.
• Video Link


My point is that Prague is expanding their metro, not their tram network within the city core, the tram network is only expanded out in the suburbs, and their tram network acts as a feeder in to the metro and train lines.

here is a video of various tram lines in the core of Prague, tihs is probably closer to what you can get along Broadway without tunneling.
• Video Link

[metroXpress]

Looks like we still need rebuttals for:

Fact #7 - No, the sewer trunk is mostly under 10th ave and in the gutter lanes of Broadway. Why? Because the streetcars used the median lanes.

Fact #12 - No tunneling required for LRT, remember the old streetcars climbed that grade. Industry standard for LRT is 8% grades (Alma); Sheffield has 10% grades; Lisbon has 13.8% grades.

Fact #18 - Untrue, as underground systems do not improve business in the region it operates, rather it drives up business taxes. New LRT lines (Portland) increase local business by about 10%.

Fact #21 - Which makes it a prime example for LRT, not metro. LRT becomes cheaper to operate than buses when ridership exceeds 2,000 persons per hour per direction.

[amor de cosmos]

#7 - even if he's right, so what? builb LRT just because the sewer lines wouldn't have to be worked around? aren't there more important things to consider?
#12 - again, even if it's true, does this fascinating piece of trivia really aseal the deal? is skytrain is being encouraged just because of the grade, as if we'd definitely go for lrt if only it weren't for the hill? hardly
#18 - which lrt lines in portland? can that be generalized to all lrt lines in all cities? sounds like he's selected a stat from somewhere else & tried to generalized. maybe it makes sense & maybe not; he didn't say where he found that out. i can't imagine that skytrain wouldn't improve business along there

[Metro-One]

Many areas around skytrain stations sure seem to have a lot more business than they did before skytrain was built. Also what people seem to forget is many of these cities that are building trams also have other major corridors (such as bypasses, highways, freeways, etc...) that travel along the same general direction, while Broadway is the only semi true road corridor travelling east to west in that region of Vancouver. I would bet a small fortune that if an at Grade LRT is built in that area there will be much more car traffic on side roads in the area trying to escape the congestion.

[nname]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Iunno about the capacity, but the 99 B-Line as is carries 60,000 passengers per weekday. Just for a bit of contrast, that's more than some of the riderships for TTC streetcar lines and it's only a little bit less than the Millennium Line's 75,000 weekday ridership.

All 3 B-Lines, the 97,98, and 99, are diesel. None are trolleys. The 99 suppossedly has 10% of the entire regional bus fleet, about 130-articulated buses.

Just some correction -

1. The 99 has about 44,000 riders back in 2007, there no way it carries 60,000 riders now. 50,000 is probably a more logical number.

2. The number 130 is the total number of diesel articulated buses. The number of buses that is actually being used on the 99 is 31 in AM peak and 33 in PM peak (2007). If you add 15% spare, at most you can claim 38 buses being used.

[mr.x]

Thanks for the input and pics guys, we'll synthesize it over the next few days.



We're also working on a section on how exactly a SkyTrain line bored under 10th Avenue would look like/be designed. If you would like to have your input added, post it in this topic.

[Overground]

Originally Posted by mr.x

REQUEST FOR PICTURES:

Some pictures of LRT construction on a road similar to Broadway Street and 10th Avenue would be nice.

Shanghai tram contruction

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34703494@N07/3368312806/in/set-72157615554841455/

Melbourne tram construction

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adonline/2191251517/

Los Angeles Expo Line light rail construction

http://www.flickr.com/photos/coyote2012/2974335213/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/coyote2012/2927147676/in/set-72157604289952703/

http://buildexpo.org/pics/0309%20Pics%20...0Copyrighted/DSC_0097%20hirez%20copy.jpg

http://buildexpo.org/pics/2008%20Construction%20Photos%20-%20Hi-Rez/DSC_0263.JPG

http://buildexpo.org/pics/0309%20Pics%20...0Copyrighted/DSC_0176%20hirez%20copy.jpg

http://buildexpo.org/pics/0309%20Pics%20for%20Website%20Hi-Rez/DSC_0043%20hirez.JPG

Here's an informative site on the LA Expo line.
http://buildexpo.org/gallery.php



Phoenix - Valley Metro light rail construction

http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_greatest/2278127821/in/set-72157600086787415/

http://www.herzogcompanies.com/Gallery/Railroad%20Construction/Valley%20Metro-%20Phoenix,%20AZ..JPG

[Hed Kandi]

Let's hope Vancouver never makes the above mistake!

[DKaz]

lol yah because constructing LRT is just so much less disruptive than cut and cover!

Bored under 10th Ave is still much better. The tunnels would be well underneath any sewer and water mains which just have to be supported at station pits during construction.