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View Poll Results: Based on options for Broadway Corridor Study, what is your preferred choice?
BRT: Commercial to UBC 25 6.16%
LRT A: Commercial to UBC OR Commercial via VCC to UBC 31 7.64%
LRT B: Main St. to UBC AND Commercial to UBC 18 4.43%
RRT: Commercial to UBC OR VCC to UBC 283 69.70%
COMBO: RRT to Arbutus/LRT to Main St via Arbutus 39 9.61%
BUS: Enhanced Bus Service for all buses to UBC 10 2.46%
Voters: 406. You may not vote on this poll

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  #741  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 4:17 AM
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Yes, but all of our tax dollars pay for it. We are simply tring to level the playing field jlousa seeing how all of the media attention is going towards the LRT side, so what are they going to think?

I am sure the merchants wil love losing their street side parking if an LRT is built .
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  #742  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 4:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFUVancouver View Post
Community shuttle -> diesel bus -> electric trolly -> streetcar/LRT -> SkyTrain/metro
No rapidbus/b-line?
     
     
  #743  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 4:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spork View Post
No rapidbus/b-line?
Good point.

I lump streetcar/LRT and B-Line together as different modes at a similar point on the transit level of service/capacity continuum.

As much as I really, really love streetcars I think that in Vancouver our electric trolleys fill the same roll as the single-car, five-to-fifteen minute level of service offered by streetcars in Portland, San Francisco, and less busy parts of Toronto.

I tend to say "streetcar/LRT" because to me that implies level of service/capacity elasticity. We are already familiar with this on Skytrain as it alters its carrying capacity by varying its level of service and using additional carriages during peak demand periods. If it were ever to go back to using two-car Mk1 trains, well that would basically be an airport people mover compared to what the system can carry when you really pile on the cars and up the frequency.

For the Broadway-UBC corridor we are already nearing or have reached the practical limit of B-Line bus service and replacing that with a streetcar/LRT system would not really help us a great deal with regards to level of service/capacity since the B-Line (BRT-light) and streetcar/LRT occupy a similar point on the transit level of service/capacity continuum. The next step up is inevitably a move to a SkyTrain/Metro system.

It will be an expensive, disruptive, divisive project during construction and a city-changing, roaring success upon completion.

I suspect that when our ancestors laid the first water mains, cobbled the streets, and introduced electricity a certain segment of the population raised all kinds of hell about how much they liked their village just the way it was.
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Last edited by SFUVancouver; Apr 17, 2009 at 5:02 AM.
     
     
  #744  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 4:55 AM
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I also feel we should have lots of LRT and trams, but the UBC extension should be built as skytrain.
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  #745  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 4:57 AM
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I'd put diesel buses/trolley buses/streetcar together because they tend to have similar station spacing and operate at similar speeds. Streetcars tend to have more capacity, though.

I'd put b-lines/LRT/skytrain together for the same reasons.

Also I'd put rapidbus (commuter buses)/commuter rail together because they're interchangeable in a sense.



I wouldn't mind seeing this phased. I also think skytrain is the best choice at least to Arbutus. I'd like to see a more thorough comparison between Arbutus and UBC, but I suspect skytrain would come out on top of an lrt-like extension of the streetcar anyway because the grade west of Alma will probably require a bored tunnel.
     
     
  #746  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 5:27 AM
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Skytrain all the way to UBC!!

Translink needs to get this one right.
     
     
  #747  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 5:37 AM
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I also recommend that if anybody here knows somebody in UBC who are part of some student clubs, tell them to come out to the consultation meetings. The UBC line will be used by the students as well and their voices should be represented. More importantly, they will probably support the skytrain instead of the TRAM system favoured by the Broadway businesses.
     
     
  #748  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 5:57 AM
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What AMS council member would be "in charge" of representing the student interest for the UBC Skytrian? VP External?
     
     
  #749  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 4:16 PM
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Make a facebook group, advertise it to your fellow UBC students. It gets my thumbs up.
     
     
  #750  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 6:55 PM
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The biggest factor that will turn around the West Broadway Business Association:

SURFACE LRT ==> PERMANENT LOSS OF [SOME] ON-STREET PARKING

Also, if other cities with LRT are any indication - strict enforcement of anti-jaywalking measures across the LRT right-of-way.

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/previous.htm

Here's the 1999 M-Line Phase II report that recommended SkyTrain to Arbutus (as opposed to surface LRT to UBC) - note 5.2MB - download then view:

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/pdf/beyondthebline.pdf

LRT Excerpt - see the report for maps:

Quote:
B. Light Rail Transit (LRT)

The LRT alternative evaluated in this study is a fair representation of the range of
LRT designs that meet the planning objectives of the City and Region, but is not
meant to be the preferred LRT design concept
. This alternative was developed
under a set of parameters provided by the project TAC and Steering Committee.
These included development of an LRT concept generally contained within the
current right-of-way, and in some instances within the existing curb-to-curb envelope.
Other guidance included retention of two through travel lanes in each
direction west of Macdonald, and retention of left turn lanes at major intersections.

Should LRT be selected as the preferred technology, a more detailed study
and comparison of LRT options will be undertaken. Specific design elements
requiring resolution include the width of station platforms at the Commercial,
Columbia, Willow, Oak, and Granville stations. Station platforms located at Fraser
and Sasamat will require special attention, due to the grades in these areas.
The
transition from Broadway to 10th at Alma Street warrants added exploration of
options to accommodate the auto, bus, pedestrian, and LRT requirements in this
area.

Service Concept - The LRT alternative is designed to serve the dual function of
serving regional trips headed to major destinations within the Broadway/Lougheed
corridor, and also to provide local circulation within the Central Broadway area.
Station spacing will average 400 metres east of Arbutus (2 to 3 blocks), while
station spacing west of Arbutus will be much less frequent (6 to 8 blocks).
While operating at street level within a mixed automobile and pedestrian environment,
the light rail alternative would employ a number of measures to make
operations as time-competitive as possible. These measures include a raised
rail median to provide separation from auto traffic in order to allow the trains
to operate without interacting with encroaching traffic. At signalized intersections,
the trains would receive preference in terms of either advancing or holding
signals to allow trains to proceed without significant delay. Proof-of-payment
fare collection would allow all-door loading on one side, thereby reducing
station dwell time. The use of low-floor vehicles would also foster faster
loading, further reducing the stop dwell times.

Alignment - The LRT alignment alternative evaluated would operate on
Broadway between Commercial and Alma, on Alma between Broadway and
10th, on 10th between Alma and Blanca, and on University Boulevard from
Blanca to the west terminal on the UBC campus. The alignment on Alma,
although geometrically possible, would impact traffic substantially, suggesting
that other options, including a diagonal alignment through the block east of
Alma, be explored if LRT were to be pursued. (See linear maps that follow.)

Stations - Stations would be located at Commercial, Clark, Fraser, Main,
Columbia, Cambie, Willow, Oak, Birch, Granville, Burrard, Arbutus, Macdonald,
Alma, Sasamat and UBC.
Due to the constrained right of way available to
accommodate sidewalks, parking, auto lanes, the rail alignment, and station platforms,
some areas required that minimum widths be used. The Columbia Station
may need to be moved or property acquired to provide added platform width.
Platforms were laid out in a number of configurations, including single center
platforms, dual side-by-side platforms, near side or far side platforms, and offset
or shadowed platforms. The platform widths vary, although attempts were made
to provide greater widths at major transfer points. High frequency service will
somewhat offset the need for greater platform width. Given the median rail alignment,
platforms will require designs that protect passengers from adjacent traffic
as well as to prevent spray from passing traffic. To accommodate a proof-of-payment
system, platforms would be equipped with ticket vending machines and
validators, as well as sheltered waiting areas, information systems, and lighting.

Operations - The LRT alternative would operate between Commercial to UBC
with each train making all stops. Service would be provided by two-car trains
during most hours, although single-car operation may be sufficient during some
periods. Two-car trains provide a practical capacity in the range of 320 passengers.
During peak hours, 3 minute headways would be provided, with 5 to 10
minute service midday, evenings, and Saturdays; and 10 to 15 minute service
during late nights and on Sundays.
The proof-of-payment system would allow
use of all doors for loading, resulting in an average dwell time of 20 seconds.
Maximum speed of the system would be 50 km/hour.

Vehicles - To size the system and establish vehicle capacity, this study assumed
commonly used North American light rail vehicles. The standard width of light rail
cars is 2.65 metres; lengths vary with most cars in the range of 26 to 28 metres.
Low floor cars are recommended because they reduce the loading time at stops
for all passengers. Narrower vehicles in the range of 2.4 metres are potentially
available, although not common in the North American market.
The advantage of
narrower vehicles is the reduced space required, in the range of .8 metres, for a
two-track alignment. Such space could be allocated to wider platforms or sidewalks.
The disadvantage of the narrower cars is the loss of seating and on-board
circulation space. The latter is a particularly important consideration for service
with relatively frequent stops and high levels of on and off riders.

Connecting and Local Transit Service - The LRT alternative would connect to
North-South Rapid Transit service either at Cambie (SkyTrain from Richmond to
downtown Vancouver) or Arbutus (LRT from Richmond to downtown Vancouver).
Parallel local service would be provided between Boundary and Main by Route
9. Route 10 would provide local service between Granville and UBC. Given the
LRT station spacing, Route 9 service would be discontinued between Main and
Granville. Routes 42, 3, 20, 51, 16, 17, 19, 15, 50, and 8 would provide additional
connecting local bus service.

Traffic, Parking and Access - The LRT alternative would provide for two
continuous through travel lanes in each direction between Commercial and Trafalgar
.
Between Trafalgar and UBC the design retains a single travel lane in each direction,
with left turn lanes at major intersections.
At all station locations, on-street
parking would be removed to accommodate auto lanes, rail right of way, station
platforms, and sidewalks. In many sections parking would be eliminated or reduced
to one side of the street. Parking would be retained on both sides of
Broadway between Trafalgar and Alma.
Minor, unsignalized streets and midblock
access driveways would be converted to right-in and right-out in order to
prevent uncontrolled crossing of the rail alignment.
The following drawings illustrate
the light rail alignment, travel lane configuration, and parking and access
restrictions. Conceptual design of light rail platform layouts follow for several
station locations.

Right of Way and Property - The LRT conceptual alternative would require
acquisition of property at two locations along the alignment, otherwise the alignment
will be built within current public right of way. These locations are on the
south side of Broadway between Kingsway and Main, and on the southeast quadrant
of the Broadway and Cambie intersection. In addition, property will be
required to accommodate a maintenance and operations facility, which will include
the storage of vehicles.

























Last edited by officedweller; Apr 17, 2009 at 7:28 PM.
     
     
  #751  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 7:40 PM
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Members of the local interest group has Patrick Condon written all over their faces.

That's why BC has the best bud in the world because these people are too stoned to look at what happened at the St. Clair West Streetcar Right-of-Way in Toronto when it first broke ground in 2006. The above post by officedweller says it all, and merchants along St. Clair West also complained about the loss of on-street parking when diggers rolled into the historical boulevard.

No matter which technology is chosen there will be disruptions causing a loss of business along the Broadway corridor.

Last edited by Kwik-E-Mart; Apr 17, 2009 at 7:58 PM.
     
     
  #752  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 7:44 PM
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Here is the Sun article

Letters to the editor (200 words or less, include address and phone#)can be sent to:
[email protected]

http://www.vancouversun.com/Merchants+re...bie+construction+mess/1505281/story.html

Quote:
Merchants, residents fight Broadway SkyTrain, citing Cambie construction mess

Store owners say they don't trust TransLink after previous debacle caused businesses to leave area

BY GERRY BELLETT, VANCOUVER SUNAPRIL 17, 2009


STORYPHOTOS ( 1 )



Businesswoman Donna Dobo is speaking out against a proposed SkyTrain extension along Broadway.
Photograph by: Bill Keay, Vancouver Sun, Vancouver Sun
After seeing what happened to Cambie Street, merchants and residents along West Broadway say they don't want a SkyTrain extension through the area to serve the University of B.C.

The provincial government's 2008 transit plan calls for a new $3-billion rapid transit system to the university along the Broadway corridor to be built by 2020.

But more than 150 residents and merchants who attended a public meeting in Kitsilano this week voted unanimously to tell TransLink and the provincial government that they don't want an overhead SkyTrain system, or one that runs underground.

"We want them to get the message that the people just don't want it," said Donna Dobo, owner of Just Imagine, a clothing store on West Broadway.

"We are in favour of improving rapid transit, but it has to be sustainable, affordable, and community-friendly, which basically describes the Portland system of light-rail trolleys that use overhead power," Dobo said.

The $3-billion price tag is an indication that the government wants to extend the SkyTrain system along the length of Broadway, she said, as the other options would be far cheaper.

"We want a system that will have many stops along Broadway that will serve our community, too, not just something to bring people from Coquitlam to UBC," said Dobo, who is a member of the West Broadway Business Association.

The meeting was organized by community activist Mel Lehan, who is the NDP candidate in the Vancouver-Point Grey riding now held by Premier Gordon Campbell.

Lehan said the number of people who turned out showed the level of concern.

"They don't want something imposed on them. They've seen the chaos caused on Cambie Street [by the Canada Line]. Broadway, as it is, would never survive that. It would no longer be the kind of neighbourhood we would want to live in," Lehan said.

Dobo said the WBBA wants assurances from the government that merchants would be compensated for loss of income as a result of any rapid transit system being built.

"We need to be able to survive it. We don't want to end up like Cambie," she said.

Merchants along the street have begun amending leases when they come up for renewal so they won't be stuck with long-term leases in the event that protracted construction closes Broadway, Dobo said.

"Cambie merchants were caught flat-footed. They lied to them about what was going to happen. Now no one trusts TransLink. That's why everyone is shortening their lease," she said.

"I've gone from a five-year to a two-year lease because I can't afford to lose my home or my business. It's a question of, either you help us survive or we'll have to leave.

"And if that happens, the whole thing that people love about this area will fall apart," she said.

TransLink official Ken Hardie said it was premature to say what sort of system will be built.

This week, TransLink commissioned British transportation consultants, Steer Davies Gleave, to produce a report on various rapid transit options for the UBC link.

"There are some misconceptions that are causing undue anxiety," Hardie said, "for one, the idea that there will be a cut-and-cover operation similar to what occurred on Cambie.

"No decision has been made on the technology, the route or if the system is to be above ground or below."

He said a number of types of rapid transit could be used on the route besides SkyTrain.

Hardie said he expects the Steer Davies Gleave report to be completed by September.

[email protected]

For updated news go to vancouversun.com

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun
     
     
  #753  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 7:48 PM
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A bunch of misinformed morons. I think this following video properly displays a street level LRT's greatest flaw compared to grade separated rail.

Video Link


Think about how bad vancouver drivers are already, now think about adding an LRT on one of the busiest streets in Vancouver. Think of the accidents! How many delays will that cause, not to mention even if the LRT is not involved in an accident it has no way to drive around it.
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  #754  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 7:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
So while I agree a Pro-skytrain group is a positive idea I don't think the group itself will have much success. In the end Translink will make the best desicion they can and there will be some unhappy people. In that regards Translink was smart in unpoliticizing translink, it enables them to make some unpopular decisions without fear of being voted out. I'm still confident that we will see an M-Line extension all the way thru to the campus.
Transit decisions are always political. A good portion of the line will be funding by the province and the feds so people will be lobbying their MLA's and MP's for the option that they want and against options they don't want. As well, already, there is a lot of misinformation is being spread about transit and SkyTrain along Broadway. Some people don't trust TL (or government in general) so a citizens group may actually have more credibility with them.

The media tends to want to get both sides of the story so a pro-SkyTrain group should be able to get a lot of media coverage without much effort.
     
     
  #755  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 8:02 PM
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Well lets think of the pros of skytrain:

No need to build a new OMC

No transfer

Grade separated (will not be in accidents as shown above and will not be delayed because of traffic accidents)

Higher capacity

Faster (much faster)

Can use already existing rolling stock

No loss of street level traffic lanes

No loss of street level parking

If bored tunneling is utilized, the only areas with surface disruptions will be the station areas themselves.
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  #756  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 8:43 PM
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I read that report. It basically says LRT is expensive and disruptive, RapidBus is cheap and could be used as an interim method (and clearly it was), and SkyTrain is the best method. None of their SkyTrain plans extended to UBC though; instead, they had RapidBus/Skytrain combo proposals, which is why it was cheaper than LRT, which was proposed to go to all the way to UBC.

Anyway, those ^^^ figures look messy and confusing. I didn't like them the first time I saw them, and I don't like them now. The conclusions about LRT in general at the end of the report should be enough to convince people it's not the right choice for Broadway. It also said if a rapid transit line was built on Cambie or Granville, the SkyTrain option would be more favourable. I imagine the new report in September will be very similar to the 1999 one, except the SkyTrain option will cost a whole lot more.

That video's hilarious! Good thing we didn't get that for the Canada Line...
     
     
  #757  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2009, 9:31 PM
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Great video.
     
     
  #758  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2009, 12:34 AM
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I'm all for a UBC line on the SkyTrain. However, what exactly is the proposed route? does it follow down Broadway? If so, wouldn't W.4 Avenue be a better alternative as it follows a more direct route to UBC from VCC-Clark? And what of the possibility of having the train as a subway, similar to the Canada Line?
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  #759  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2009, 12:37 AM
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Under 10th Ave. is the preferred route - see the 1999 report linked above.

For 4th Ave., the hill from 6th up to Broadway would be an impediment to riders commuting to the Broadway office corridor and the hospitals.
     
     
  #760  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2009, 2:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeats View Post
I read that report. It basically says LRT is expensive and disruptive, RapidBus is cheap and could be used as an interim method (and clearly it was), and SkyTrain is the best method. None of their SkyTrain plans extended to UBC though; instead, they had RapidBus/Skytrain combo proposals, which is why it was cheaper than LRT, which was proposed to go to all the way to UBC.

Anyway, those ^^^ figures look messy and confusing. I didn't like them the first time I saw them, and I don't like them now. The conclusions about LRT in general at the end of the report should be enough to convince people it's not the right choice for Broadway. It also said if a rapid transit line was built on Cambie or Granville, the SkyTrain option would be more favourable. I imagine the new report in September will be very similar to the 1999 one, except the SkyTrain option will cost a whole lot more.

That video's hilarious! Good thing we didn't get that for the Canada Line...
well it would have to go all the way. its not like it can just turn around and switch to the other track in the middle of broadway. I dont think i need to explain why skytrain could end any where and switch tracks easily.
     
     
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