Edmonton Construction 9 (2008-08)

[feepa]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/billburris/3445853897/sizes/l/

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

^agreed in full, my point is that many people do not fully consider what they need and dont really know what they want when home buying.

i know more than a few friends who bought 1600-2200sqft houses in the burbs because 'thats what you do' and now somewhat regret it.

although there's probably no more of them than those that bought a 770 sf condo because marriage and kids was in the far distant and blury future and now somewhat regret that after finding out that the future can sneak up pretty fast...

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by cdnklc

price and unit size do not have direct inverse relationship...


if you have an 800 sf unit and 600 sf unit all of your plumbing and servicing and fixtures and "per unit" item costs are pretty much the same. so lets say one of those items (plumbing rough-in for example) cost you 1,000. for the 800 sf unit, that's 1.25 psf. for the 600 sf unit it's 1.67 psf (i.e. a third more). do this for everything from that plumbing roughin to the patio door to the suite entry to the heat pump and electrical panel...

and where are you going to make the unit smaller? if it's in width, you will have more units per floor but each one still needs a kitchen, bathroom, washer and dryer, living area and bedroom etc. so the layouts will have to include more interior space - and less exterior space - which still costs the same to provide on an overall but is "worth" less within the unit). alternatively, you could provide the same width and less depth which means a greater percentage of exterior skin per sf in those units but which will - on a psf basis - will make the units that much more expensive, not less.

at the end of the day you may be able to deliver those smaller units for a lower total cost but those savings will not be proportional to the reduction in area. that 150 sf "second bedroom" is probably the least expensive space that can be taken out of one of those units... the switch to progressively smaller units will take place as market and construction costs rise to much higher levels that than our market currently pays for. until then, there is still a decreasing benefit to the purchaser in terms of total cost vs cost per square foot in getting smaller than you can afford and are prepared to pay for.

KLC - i was not talking about our side of the business, i was talking about the fact that as you pay more for a unit the size typically increases and if you shrink a unit your price drops.

my point was that if people are being priced out of the market because our visionary developers are all doing 700+ sqft units at $280,000 and up then there is obviously a potential market for doing 600sqft at $240,000.

both are $400sqft but both allow for different buyers to enter the market

we see that in van where unit size has shrunk as prices have risen

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by cdnklc

although there's probably no more of them than those that bought a 770 sf condo because marriage and kids was in the far distant and blury future and now somewhat regret that after finding out that the future can sneak up pretty fast...

fair enough however a 770sqft condo should easily be able to host a wife and child

[rapid_business]

@KLC - absolutely. I understand the economics of it, but consideration for supply/demand isn't being honestly taken into account when considering the 2009 price-point of these units, and who (or what their target market - which is always 'young professionals it seems') can afford what. Sure the profit margin is higher on larger units for the reasons you mentioned, but what young joe-accountant is willing to pay for, and can afford, doesn't line up with the product that is available.

EDIT: typing to slow... it's been said.

[tony0911]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Bull shit

there are plenty of options downtown that fit that bill

get out more

Where the hell can I get a 2000 sq foot well appointed condo downtown in a good location in Edmonton?

By the way I get out quite a bit, just don't enjoy living in a shoe box.

[Kevin_foster]

I live in a 1,900 sq. ft townhouse (on 3 floors) and I do miss my 750 sq. ft condo. A few things:

- Lots of room for family to sleep over
- My backyard was a golf course and many parks
- 100 bazillion times Easier to keep clean
- Cold is right - my living room extended to coffee shops, restaurants etc. I got out more.
- lower taxes

1,900 square feet is great, at first, but to be honest I could easily move my family (wife and little one) back into a 700 sq. ft place no problem. (the trick would be to do some heavy convincing!)

But then again, I love minimalism.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by tony0911

Where the hell can I get a 2000 sq foot well appointed condo downtown in a good location in Edmonton?

By the way I get out quite a bit, just don't enjoy living in a shoe box.

while not as plentiful as 800-1000sqft, there are a lot of 1500-2200sqft penthouses and subpenthouses along with unique older buildings in oliver and along the top of bank.

Icon and quest have ones near that range, jasper properties, river vista, viva city, etc. etc.

not to mention the townhouse options

[tony0911]

I want to be close to the core or more in the oliver area.

Icon is Garbage i know several people in building one trying to sue the developer.

River Vista is Garbage they build a penthouse with the kitchen and bathrooms of a 500 sq ft unit.

I'd cut my arms off before living in Vivacity.

Jasper Properties not bad, but too far east to walk to anything decent and still a sketchy area.

Quest units appear ok but not quite the size I would like.

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't want to sacrifice to move into a condo. I like my luxuries and I like my space, and I know many other people that do as well, problem is developers here don't want to build it. Still hoping a unit come up in Lessard house or Concert goes ahead with the ski lodge because that would be a killer location with probably decent finishings and unit sizes.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

KLC - i was not talking about our side of the business, i was talking about the fact that as you pay more for a unit the size typically increases and if you shrink a unit your price drops.

my point was that if people are being priced out of the market because our visionary developers are all doing 700+ sqft units at $280,000 and up then there is obviously a potential market for doing 600sqft at $240,000.

both are $400sqft but both allow for different buyers to enter the market

we see that in van where unit size has shrunk as prices have risen

reread my post Coldrsx - if you can deliver a 700 sf unit at 400 psf, that doesn't mean you can deliver a 600 sf unit at 400 psf so they will NOT "both be 400 psf.

it's much more likely that the 600 sf unit will need to sell for 435 psf, all other things being equal (i.e. it still needs a kitchen and a bathroom and all of those other things that are just as expensive in a 600 sf unit as they would be in the 700 sf unit). so that 600 sf unit is now 261,000, not 240,000. which means for an additional 19,000 or 7.3% (17,100 of which is likely going to financed), you could buy a unit that would be 28.3% larger. if affordability is not the issue (and it's not likely to be at that price/spread level), then most of the market is going to prefer 770 sf over 600 sf. if that's the case, which segment would you rather compete in - the one offering more space and better value or the one that meets the needs of fewer potential purchasers?

what you see in vancouver - and other markets - did not happen when prices were in the 400 psf range. when prices were inexpensive, units were large - because that's what people could still afford - even in vancouver. that changes when "entry level" unit pricing moves into the 800-1,000 psf range. at that point it is pure affordability - and not choice - which drives the market because even at the lower end that 600 sf condo is now probably 522,000 by the time you're done (not 261,000), and that 770 sf unit would probably be up at the 616,000 level (using 870 psf and 800 psf respectively to keep the comparision on the same relative cost basis).

[deedub35]

Originally Posted by tony0911

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't want to sacrifice to move into a condo. I like my luxuries and I like my space, and I know many other people that do as well, problem is developers here don't want to build it. Still hoping a unit come up in Lessard house or Concert goes ahead with the ski lodge because that would be a killer location with probably decent finishings and unit sizes.

If you don't want to sacrifice anything then don't move into a condo. Having lived downtown in a condo for the last 8 years there are pros and cons.

Just to list some.

Pros:
-walkability to amenities
-no lawns to maintain or snow removal

Cons:
-less storage space
-noise of neighbors
-city noise (emergency vehicle sirens)
-the dreaded condo fees
-inefficient floor plans
-parking for visitors

[tony0911]

^ Problem is I want to be downtown but can't find suitable product.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by tony0911

I want to be close to the core or more in the oliver area.

Icon is Garbage i know several people in building one trying to sue the developer.

River Vista is Garbage they build a penthouse with the kitchen and bathrooms of a 500 sq ft unit.

I'd cut my arms off before living in Vivacity.

Jasper Properties not bad, but too far east to walk to anything decent and still a sketchy area.

Quest units appear ok but not quite the size I would like.

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't want to sacrifice to move into a condo. I like my luxuries and I like my space, and I know many other people that do as well, problem is developers here don't want to build it. Still hoping a unit come up in Lessard house or Concert goes ahead with the ski lodge because that would be a killer location with probably decent finishings and unit sizes.

have you seen some of the pretty cool older buildings with those type of units on vic promenade?

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by deedub35

If you don't want to sacrifice anything then don't move into a condo. Having lived downtown in a condo for the last 8 years there are pros and cons.

Just to list some.

Pros:
-walkability to amenities
-no lawns to maintain or snow removal

Cons:
-less storage space
-noise of neighbors
-city noise (emergency vehicle sirens)
-the dreaded condo fees
-inefficient floor plans
-parking for visitors

-have less stuff, stop overliving
-at times yes but choose a better STC building
-to each their own, i like it
-the dreaded misconception
-generally i would agree
-oh please, there is parking all over downtown

[ue]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

the one thing many people dont consider or forget about is that if you live downtown or centrally, your kitchen can be FAR smaller because you can eat out more, your backyard is the park across the street, and your living room is the coffee shop around the corner.

smaller units encourage more outside interaction.... a good thing

agreed. especially about the park. when you go to a public park, you don't need to arrange 2 weeks in advance for a party with the friends in the neighbourhood, you just bump into them while walking your dog and then end up catching up in the coffee shop.

[0773|=\]

Originally Posted by Kevin_foster

I live in a 1,900 sq. ft townhouse (on 3 floors) and I do miss my 750 sq. ft condo. A few things:

- Lots of room for family to sleep over
- My backyard was a golf course and many parks
- 100 bazillion times Easier to keep clean
- Cold is right - my living room extended to coffee shops, restaurants etc. I got out more.
- lower taxes

1,900 square feet is great, at first, but to be honest I could easily move my family (wife and little one) back into a 700 sq. ft place no problem. (the trick would be to do some heavy convincing!)

But then again, I love minimalism.

Interesting. I've grown up in the burbs my whole life, so obviously that's what I'm used to, but I've noticed some things when visiting friends living in condos and travelling abroad... suburban homes have a LOT of wasted space.

Last year when I travelled to South Africa, I was hosted by a family in a small town just east of Cape Town, and I couldn't get over how much more efficient residential use-of-space is. There's one bathroom for the family, but it just becomes a part of the morning routine that people share (!!!) and plan ahead. The dining/living area is one room, so typically, especially if something good (Rugby) is on TV, the entire family would eat together without much hassle. There isn't a huge backyard, but really, most of the time, we would go out and play tennis or cricket in the nearby park, or on the front street (much the way people play street hockey out here).

These were complete stand-alone homes, but the neighbourhood was still very dense. Tuck shops were nearby, and grocery stores--while still demanding use of a vehicle--were more frequent (and smaller) than is the case in Canada. You start to realize that most peoples' backyards are too small to play a soccer game in, but other than looking nice, really, what are they used for when company isn't over?

Since much of that space is already alotted, I wonder if more suburbanites will be encouraged in the future to use their space for vegetable gardens. At least then there would be a degree of sustainability implemented in a suburban lifestyle (less trips to a grocery store).

The obvious advantage of smaller living space is the efficient use of space, but the intangible advantage would have to be the active promotion of communal living.

[deedub35]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

-the dreaded misconception

Depends. My condo on 110 street - top floor - 908 square feet had condo fees $286. Not bad as water (potable and heat) and gas was covered. I have some friends in other buildings paying close to $600. But then again they have a fitness room, party room, or perhaps a pool. Regardless, $600 per month is a lot.

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

-oh please, there is parking all over downtown

Depends. Where you live yes. There is an impark lot right next door. Where I lived an impark lot is a couple of blocks away. Bottom line is if I had guests coming over in the evening especially Friday or Saturday night the chances of them finding on street parking was slim.

[Coldrsx]

^
but there is parking... we get so convinced everything should be free. Oh no, a few bucks for parking. Perhaps take transit should parking not be avail.

^^
agreed in full. unfortunately here in 90% of N.A. we have "space" so we abuse it. Gluttony at its best.

some argue that is freedom of choice, i would argue it is getting to the point of ridiculousness and an infringement on resource use.

[Kevin_foster]

I can see where Tony is coming from. We don't live in a communist regime, so if he wants/needs 1,500+ square feet to live; and wants to live downtown - get 100 Tony's and you have demand for a certain product. I can almost guarantee that the majority of people have the same needs & requirements as Tony does - thus the Edmonton condo market has responded (although, not adequately) to the need.

That said, don't knock a minialist lifestyle until you try it... it would be nice to see developers offer smaller units as options, to test the tides with Edmonton consumers; and slowly demand will grow and mindsets will be changed . The positive features of living in a smaller space go so deep - everything from what you eat (more fresh items instead of pantried items) to creating an economy and culture of independant business (aka no need for Wal-Marts and Box stores!) - it could take hours for me to go over!

/* all said tongue in cheek from my ginourmous townhouse */

[Coldrsx]

^haha indeed. It is indeed about choice and freedom to chose however i think we have some serious priority problems in NA.

I would like to see 2-3, 25 storey buildings in 2-3 strategic locations downtown where no parking is required other than visitor and a few shared vehicle spots, largest unit size being 750sqft with most 450-650.

create pockets of density/life/availability....

Where I would like these:

1. 100ave/105st - southwest corner
2. 105st/ 102ave - northwest corner
3. 108st/104ave - southeast corner