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  #1341  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2009, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by metonymy View Post
Not major news, but Tall Grass Prairie is planning an addition to their bakery on Westminster. A little more space there would definitely help out!

this was aproved btw
     
     
  #1342  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2009, 5:24 AM
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theere is already a fitness centre on the ground floor of the parkade at canwest along albert....i wonder if it will close down....would be nice if those storefronts were opened up to the street instead.
     
     
  #1343  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2009, 5:37 AM
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  #1344  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2009, 7:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jimj_wpg View Post


x2
     
     
  #1345  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2009, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
theere is already a fitness centre on the ground floor of the parkade at canwest along albert....i wonder if it will close down....would be nice if those storefronts were opened up to the street instead.
it sure would
     
     
  #1346  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2009, 7:58 PM
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Would you want to live in the tallest office towers in Winnipeg?

Would you want to live in the tallest office towers in Winnipeg if Canwest global place (TD tower) and the Richardson building had some floors converted into residential units?

I know I would if I had the dinero $. Knowing that you live in the highest view and the best view of downtown would earn you bragging rights. Mix-use buildings has always been the best way to liven up a downtown. I am not saying the building should be residential but some could. Heck in canwest global place is going to have a huge gym. I mean why not make the skyscraper partially condo or apartment suites. This could easily bring in a whole bunch people to live downtown just because of the view and amenities they get. You get to live on the edge of downtown and the exchange. And perhaps just a hop skip away from work. if marketed properly this could be a mini boom to downtown. Of course I would expect these suites to not be cheap.

If i am not mistaken there seems to be a demand for condo and apartement and office space. Perhaps its time to build some more office towers built with mix-use in mind.
     
     
  #1347  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2009, 8:35 PM
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It is great to see a highend fitness centre go into Canwest Centre.

I seriously doubt any space in these towers will ever be converted to condo use. Those buildings are nearly always fully leased .. and are in high demand.

Not to mention it would never satisify zoning issues. They were not built for residential use. Of course I would love to see a new residential tower go up in the area.
     
     
  #1348  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2009, 10:36 PM
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perhaps the trizac 2 pad could be used for that? and while were at it reclad the trizac as its looking rather aged these days and they could make it more energy efficent
     
     
  #1349  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2009, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
perhaps the trizac 2 pad could be used for that? and while were at it reclad the trizac as its looking rather aged these days and they could make it more energy efficent
They already started rebranding Trizec(Commodity Exchange Tower) as 360 Main they redid the Winnipeg Square underground entrance with this. It ties in with the new tiling being completed down there, looks very modern.
     
     
  #1350  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2009, 1:40 AM
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i miss the old brown tilles that was not what i was coplining about...

i am talking about the skin of the exterior of the building
     
     
  #1351  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2009, 3:21 AM
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Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
perhaps the trizac 2 pad could be used for that? and while were at it reclad the trizac as its looking rather aged these days and they could make it more energy efficent
I have long wished to see the unused pad home to a new tower.
     
     
  #1352  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2009, 6:42 AM
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I have long wished to see the unused pad home to a new tower.
Me too.

If things didn't turn bad back then, we would have seen that Trizec tower, the hotel in between, and TD Centre II right across the street on Portage, along with condos, had there been demand back then.

Things would have been a lot different today.
     
     
  #1353  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2009, 6:50 AM
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we have what 3 tower pads we could infill on downtown?
     
     
  #1354  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2009, 7:21 AM
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I count 4:

* Trizec/Commodity Exchange Tower/360 Main
* TD Centre/Canwest Global
* west pad atop Portage Pl.
* east pad atop Portage Pl.
     
     
  #1355  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2009, 8:19 AM
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Originally Posted by The Jabroni View Post
Me too.

If things didn't turn bad back then, we would have seen that Trizec tower, the hotel in between, and TD Centre II right across the street on Portage, along with condos, had there been demand back then.

Things would have been a lot different today.
Had those buildings gone up, downtown Winnipeg would be a very different place today, IMO. The image would also be greatly enhanced with the added density of highrise towers.
     
     
  #1356  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2009, 9:19 AM
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if they had built trizak 2 td never would of happend i suspect
     
     
  #1357  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2009, 6:18 PM
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Perspective: 'Hood-winked?'
Winnipeggers were promised a utopian suburb in Waverley West, but scaled-back plans have dashed expectations and created a very different reality


By: Bartley Kives and Mary Agnes Welch | Winnipeg Free Press - Feb. 15

Six years ago last month, Winnipeggers picked up their Saturday paper and read about a suburb that sounded almost too good to be true.

The Manitoba government and land developer Ladco promised, in January 2003, to transform 1,200 hectares of mostly empty land into the largest residential development in the city's history: Waverley West, which could eventually see 12,000 homes and about 30,000 people spring up on Winnipeg's southwest fringe.


A new 'burb the size of Brandon was precisely what Winnipeg home builders wanted to see, given a shortage of lots in the city's highly desirable southwest quadrant. The Doer government stood to gain from the transaction because it owned about half the land and could garner two forms of revenue: short-term cash from the sale and future education taxes.

But for the City of Winnipeg, then led by urbanist mayor Glen Murray, a massive new suburb wasn't an easy sell. Although a pair of studies suggested the city could make anywhere from $74 million to $228 million from Waverley West in the form of future property taxes and building permits, the mere idea scared civic politicians concerned about everything from long-term road-maintenance costs to the effect on inner-city revitalization to a pre-existing need to develop other suburban areas, most notably South Charleswood.

But the Doer government promised Waverley West would be unlike any suburb Winnipeg had ever seen before. Streets would be laid out to encourage pedestrian traffic, with more bike trails and parks than regular 'burbs. A wide variety of homes, with garages at the side, would be designed to encourage face-to-face contact between neighbours.

The entire subdivision could feature environmentally friendly geothermal heating, a "town centre" to reduce the need to drive anywhere, and a future extension of Kenaston Boulevard to give pedestrians easy access to this commercial development, thanks to a pair of flyovers. To top it off, $20 million in provincial profits would be used to fund inner-city housing and revitalization projects.

Six years later, roughly 75 homes are either occupied or under construction in Waverley West, including some featuring the "new urbanist" design principles originally touted by the province.

But plans for geothermal heating have been dramatically scaled back, the flyovers are no more, and the inner-city funding has been reduced by two-thirds.

Now, as the projected costs of extending roads, sewers and water mains into Waverley West begin to show up in city budgets, the suburb under construction no longer resembles the suburb the province originally promoted.

"The way they did it was sort of, 'In your wildest dreams, and if you had an unlimited amount of money, what would you do?' And that's the hype that kind of got out there," said city council finance chairman Justin Swandel, whose St. Norbert ward includes Waverley West.

"When you drill down to reality, that wasn't actually what happened."

If you had to tally up a list of Waverley West's successes and failures, only the fact new homes are going up, including some featuring "new urbanist" design, stands out as a clear success.

The geothermal-heating plan died early in 2008 when the government learned what city engineers already knew: Southwest Winnipeg sits above a pool of salt water that must be pumped back underground when you dig geothermal-heating tunnels. Pumping the salt water out added to the already hefty initial cost of geothermal heat. Now, only a quarter of the homes are earmarked for geothermal.

The pair of flyovers were nixed in the summer of 2006 when the city and province reached a $38-million deal to build a Kenaston Boulevard extension (now pegged at about $60 million). The flyovers would have added $26 million to the project.

At that time, the province reduced to $7.5 million the $20-million contribution for the inner city, though the province says some of the original $20 million was meant to help the city offset infrastructure costs.

University of Manitoba architecture dean David Witty, host of an early brainstorming session, said it's a little premature to judge the suburb. But, he said, there are none of the shops, apartments and mixed-used buildings that make a neighbourhood a complete community.



On a micro level, Waverley West is better than Whyte Ridge or Linden Woods. The houses look a little different, and there are sidewalks and lots of parks. Unfortunately, the broad design condemns it to be a car-bound suburb like all the others, said Witty.

But the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corp., the government land-development office that's spearheading Waverley West, says the suburb has many features buyers can't find in any other new development.

Dwayne Rewniak, MHRC's land development director, said there are 35 hectares of green space that snake through the suburb. Many of the area's mature trees have been saved and more are being planted. Most streets have sidewalks. Strict design rules have limited the number of "snout houses" -- homes with protruding two-car garages.

In an effort to avoid the beige, cookie-cutter appearance of suburbs with only a few styles of houses, the province has asked several home builders to each design a handful of homes. In true "new urbanist" style, many of the homes have a Wolseley-ish feel, with siding, white-trimmed porches and gable windows.

"There are many elements of this that will be subtle and seen over time, more by residents living there than by people walking by," added Paul McNeill, vice-president of the MMM Group, a consulting firm that conducted several Waverley West studies.

"You're just beginning to see it now as the streets fill in."

Civic politicians are also beginning to see the hard costs of creating the suburb. The feedermain to carry water in will cost $11 million. The main sewer pipe will cost $4.6 million. The tab for community centres, policing and fire protection is $39 million. And along with the $60-million Kenaston extension, there are plans to widen Waverley Street, extend Bison Drive and improve other components of southwest Winnipeg's transportation network at a cost of more than $300 million, not including the $327 million southwest bus corridor former mayor Murray hoped would service the new suburb.

The capital costs of the suburb are undeniably higher than the $119 million projected in 2004, when the city and province conducted a pair of cost-benefit analyses that came up with widely different earning projections: the city predicted $74 million over 60 years, while the province envisioned $228 million over 23 years.

"Any peripheral development is never cost-neutral," said architect Steve Cohlmeyer, an early critic of Waverley West. "The cost of servicing everything -- libraries, schools as well as the obvious infrastructure systems -- is very high."

Provincial Tory Leader Hugh McFadyen, whose Fort Whyte riding includes Waverley West, suggests Winnipeggers may have been snookered.

The Doer government overhyped the greenness of Waverley West in part because it knew it was vulnerable on two fronts: Critics could and did slam the province for promoting urban sprawl at the expense of the downtown, and there has always been the risk the city and the province would lose money.

"What Manitobans are getting is not as advertised," McFadyen said.

In response, Manitoba Housing Minister Gord Mackintosh said it's too soon to judge Waverley West, especially since some of the suburb's best features -- high-density condos and apartments, commercial areas, good transit connections -- are still to come.

"I think all the early signals point to a successful development," he said. "We're only two years into a 20-year project, remember."

The first homes started going up in Waverley West in 2008. The suburb may not be built out until 2028, when metropolitan Winnipeg's population is expected to reach 900,000.

As a result, city councillor Swandel agreed it's too early to predict if Waverley West will fulfil its initial promise.

"We look to government to be innovative at times, and I think that's what the province of Manitoba was trying to do here," he said, recalling the initial sales pitch.

"Time will tell whether or not they've been successful."



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Waverley West then & now

Cost projections in 2004

$228 million

The Doer government's original estimate for city property taxes and building permits generated by Waverley West during the first 23 years of the suburb's existence.



$74 million

The city's original estimate of its earnings from Waverley West during the first 60 years of the suburb's existence.



$119 million

Original estimate of the total cost of building, expanding and extending roadways in and around Waverley West, extending water and sewer service into the suburb and building new facilities such as community centres, libraries and fire and police stations.
     
     
  #1358  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2009, 6:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
if they had built trizak 2 td never would of happend i suspect
It depends on the situation.

If it weren't for Winnipeg's overall decline in the office market over the last 35+ years, then we would have seen BOTH towers, AND perhaps two towers at Portage Place.

If Trizec's plan went through without a hitch (along with other factors), then we probably wouldn't have seen TD/Canwest today.

We're already overdue for more people downtown. We need more apartments/condos in downtown. Hell, a lot more sustainable development!!
     
     
  #1359  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2009, 6:21 PM
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Many promises made, some already broken

What was promised for Waverley West and what's been delivered:


Winnipeg Free Press - Feb. 15, 2009

Geothermal Heating

The promise: In November 2003, former provincial housing minister Tim Sale said the province wanted to see all 12,000 homes in Waverley West heated geothermally to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions of the new suburb. "We are seriously considering making the Waverley land a no-gas division, all geothermal," he said.

The reality: In February 2008, the province said geothermal heating was not financially feasible for this section of Winnipeg. The saline aquifer that lies below southwest Winnipeg would force builders to pump saltwater back below the surface when they were installing geothermal systems, and that would drive up the cost of green heat. But, as a compromise, 54 of the 380 lots now under development have been earmarked for geothermal.

Pedestrian-friendly flyovers


The promise: In 2004, the design for the new suburb called for a "town centre" in the middle that would not be interrupted by the extension of Kenaston Boulevard. Two flyovers were supposed to allow pedestrians easy access to either side of the major street and ensure that each neighbourhood wasn't boxed-in and isolated like Linden Woods.

The reality: In July 2006, the city and province reached a deal to fund the Kenaston extension without building the flyovers, which would have cost $13 million each.



'New urbanist' design

The promise: In May 2003, the city's top urban planners said they wanted to see the homes in Waverley West built according to "new urbanist" principles that encourage more face-to-face contact between neighbours. Those principles call for garages to be set back from houses, back lanes instead of driveways, more green space, fewer fences between homes and a variety of designs so every home is unique. Houses should be built on smaller lots with a mix of condos and apartments nearby to promote density and amenities such as grocery stores, and bus stops should be within walking distance so people aren't always in their cars.

The reality: The province sprinkled the lots among a long list of builders so the homes look a little less cookie-cutter than usual, and there's an extensive network of parks and trees and trails throughout the development, along with sidewalks and some lanes. But the homes are expensive (Bridgwater Forest homes are currently listed for $313,000 to $503,000) with huge lots. It could be years before some of the promised 2,000 apartments or condos pop up, not to mention a Second Cup or a corner store. Streets are laid out in a meandering, winding pattern instead of a grid, which makes walking annoying.


Inner-city revitalization

The promise: In June 2005, Premier Gary Doer promised to funnel $20 million to downtown Winnipeg from sales of provincially owned land in Waverley West. "We have always said that the government should not make money on the sale of land in Winnipeg," Doer said. "I pledge to you that every cent from the sale of Waverley West will be reinvested in the inner city and Neighbourhoods Alive."

The reality: In July 2006, the provincial government whittled down its commitment to inner-city housing to $7.5 million. Housing Minister Gord Mackintosh said a portion of the province's profits were always intended to go to the city to offset infrastructure costs, though that message may have gotten lost early on.


New lots to meet the housing demand

The promise: As many as 12,000 new homes that could house 30,000 people could be built over 20 years, easing a lot shortage in highly desirable southwest Winnipeg. Without new lots, the city could lose out on growth and revenue, developers warned.

The reality: It's too early to tell. About 75 new homes are occupied or under construction and 280 lots have been sold so far.

No cost to the city

The promise: The Doer government claimed Winnipeg would earn $228 million over the first 23 years of the development's existence.

The reality: It's too early to tell.



-- Kives and Welch
     
     
  #1360  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2009, 7:30 PM
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The papers are making it sound like scaling back Waverly West is a bad thing.
     
     
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