Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[DKaz]

I say they start boring a tunnel now all the way to Blanca and they can start building the extension when ready, It wouldn't be any different than when they used to existing Dunsmuir tunnel for Skytrain... just dig the station pits later.

Originally Posted by igeneer

I'm curious to hear about what you guys do (especially mr. x2, DKaz, etc), as it seems you seem to really know what's going on with these projects. I am about to start a masters thesis, hopefully focusing on reducing car dependence in the Vancouver area. Any ideas?

I'm a mechanical engineer who probably should've gone into civil engineering or transportation planning instead. lol.

I think you should start a new thread or better yet a blog for your research. It's a complicated topic with no simple answer. Our high transit usage has been decades in the making with a long ways to go.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by racc

Not sure they would even need a pit. There is quite a hill at GNW and Prince Ed. I suspect they could just start tunnelling into the embankment without digging a pit. The station could even be at grade reducing costs although I believe the plan was to have it elevated a bit further east.

By "pit" I meant a TBM staging (assembly) area. I suppose they could excavate into the hillside for a staging area.

*************

Dleung's plan looks good - but as others have mentioned, I don't agree with a trench on University Blvd.
In addition, the tunnel portal doesn't need to be in the median of University Blvd - it could be on some golf course land and the line could route around to the University's projects on the south part of campus (either before or after a main station near Wesbrook Mall).

WRT Cambie Station, although the knockout panel is on the west end of the mezzanine, the station can be located under the City owned block to the east (i.e. between Yukon and Cambie) and tied into the Canada Line station from the east.

WRT boring versus cut and cover, if the bore is deeper, then station construction costs would be higher for a bored tunnel. Note that InTransitBC was also going to try using a post-tensioned precast segment system for the stacked cut and cover tunnel but given the time constraints, the cast in place method was used because of the advantages of multiple fronts. So if there's no time constraint, maybe a cut and cover tunnel using precast segments could be cheaper than a bored tunnel.

[djh]

Originally Posted by awvan

dleung's plan is absolutely stunning. As with what other's have said, I wouldn't go for a trench down University Blvd. Cut and cover would suffice for sure. Bringing the line up to an elevated guideway just before the start the the residential area is interesting, especially for the views, but I think the change from underground to elevated would be a little too expensive for it to be worthwhile. Two stations at UBC is an interesting idea as well, but the way the campus is set up a single station at E Mall/old bus loop would probably suffice. An extra 5-10 mins of walking isn't that big of a deal, considering how the campus is set up pretty well for walking now. It would also save likely millions of dollars for a new station.

A trench along University Blvd allows the road network to cross the tracks. If it was at-grade, how would vehicles go North-South, or turn left from the North-South streets? You can't have road crossings over Skytrain tracks. Residents and others would be heavily inconvenienced if Skytrain was run at-grade in an area with cross-streets.
Elevated Skytrain tracks would be a good alternative to the trench option, and I like the idea of giving the riders the most amazing view.

* * *
Deasine - please post a link to dleung's original thread. Thanks!

[wrenegade]

Originally Posted by djh

A trench along University Blvd allows the road network to cross the tracks. If it was at-grade, how would vehicles go North-South, or turn left from the North-South streets? You can't have road crossings over Skytrain tracks. Residents and others would be heavily inconvenienced if Skytrain was run at-grade in an area with cross-streets.
Elevated Skytrain tracks would be a good alternative to the trench option, and I like the idea of giving the riders the most amazing view.

* * *
Deasine - please post a link to dleung's original thread. Thanks!

I wasn't saying it should be at-grade. My preference would be underground cut and cover west of Blanca all the way to an underground station at E Mall & University Blvd.

[dreambrother808]

Why not elevated all the way after Blanca?

[SpongeG]

why can't they do it phases?

do at least to arbutus and than as funding rest of route comes together start the next phase

seems to work in other cities - like cities in spain add a little bit more every year instead of doing it one big swoop like we want to do here

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

why can't they do it phases?

do at least to arbutus and than as funding rest of route comes together start the next phase

seems to work in other cities - like cities in spain add a little bit more every year instead of doing it one big swoop like we want to do here

It's cheaper to do it all at once. When you have phases, there are additional start-up costs.

And phasing certainly couldn't be done if it's being bored.

Besides, I'd rather do it all now rather than having people question about the technology again with endless studies for future phases. Those ivory tower scholars are bound to bounce on that opportunity again. Afterall, that's what happened right now when the Liberals shelved Phase II of the M-Line in 2002.

[officedweller]

As a side note, here's rendering of Seattle's proposed LRT station at the University of Washington - one deep station - from the Seattle Times. Imagine thousands of students travelling up and down those escalators every day!!

please post a link to dleung's original thread. Thanks!

He posts over at SSC:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=489730&page=12

[Locked In]

Originally Posted by djh

* * *
Deasine - please post a link to dleung's original thread. Thanks!

dleung's post is on the Millennium Line Extension Thread on SkyscraperCity:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=489730&page=12

Edit: whoops, 1 post too late!

[racc]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

It's cheaper to do it all at once. When you have phases, there are additional start-up costs.

And phasing certainly couldn't be done if it's being bored.

I'm not an expert but it could phased and it might be cheaper. The supply chain for the boring machine would be very long if it was all the way from Prince Ed to UBC. This could increase the risk of delays as well as be operational not efficient. As well, if there is a problem with the boring machine, it would delay the completion of the whole line, not just the second phase part.

The TBM might also require maintenance along the so so it might have to phases.

Having the section from VCC to Arbutus operational sooner increases ridership revenue sooner so there is an advantage to that.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by racc

I'm not an expert but it could phased and it might be cheaper. The supply chain for the boring machine would be very long if it was all the way from Prince Ed to UBC. This could increase the risk of delays as well as be operational not efficient. As well, if there is a problem with the boring machine, it would delay the completion of the whole line, not just the second phase part.

The TBM might also require maintenance along the so so it might have to phases.

Having the section from VCC to Arbutus operational sooner increases ridership revenue sooner so there is an advantage to that.

None of that would a problem since the stations would still be built using cut and cover, like the Canada Line downtown stations.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by officedweller

As a side note, here's rendering of Seattle's proposed LRT station at the University of Washington - one deep station - from the Seattle Times. Imagine thousands of students travelling up and down those escalators every day!!





He posts over at SSC:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=489730&page=12

How does this compare to Granville Station, I wonder. Granville's lower platform can't be more than 50' methinks.

[officedweller]

Don't know how deep Granville Station is. But 100' is 10 storeys, and I don't think it's that deep.

Originally Posted by mr.x2

None of that would a problem since the stations would still be built using cut and cover, like the Canada Line downtown stations.

I remember seeing the conveyor belt to remove spoil running through the Vancouver City Centre Station (presumably all the way to the south side of False Creek) - so they didn't extract the spoil closeby.

WRT phased-in service, there would be a cost associated with customizing software for a partial line. But M-Line was phased in, so it would probably be economical for a significant leg like VCC-Arbutus.

[racc]

Originally Posted by officedweller

WRT phased-in service, there would be a cost associated with customizing software for a partial line. But M-Line was phased in, so it would probably be economical for a significant leg like VCC-Arbutus.

This would be minor. As you said, they opened in the Millennium Line in three phases. Even when lines are in operation, they have to adjust routing due to problems on the line.

By not phasing, the investment in infrastructure that has been built but is not in operation and earning revenue, is much greater, probably around $1.4 billion worth if half the line would be in the first phase. Assuming the phase performs financially better in operation than the buses on that phase, this would be a benefit to TransLink.

[Jared]

There's a difference between building it in two phases, and opening it in two phases. You can commit to the whole thing at once, and still open it in phases (i.e. Millenium Line opening to Braid first, then Commercial later).

I also like dleung's plan, it's pretty much the same thing as I want, although I'm not entirely convinved of the need for a Wesbrook Station, I think one station at UBlvd and East Mall (to integrate with the bus loop) should be sufficient.

[eduardo88]

Originally Posted by Jared

There's a difference between building it in two phases, and opening it in two phases. You can commit to the whole thing at once, and still open it in phases (i.e. Millenium Line opening to Braid first, then Commercial later).

That's what i was thinking, start the TBM and open the line all the way to arbutus while the rest is finished...

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by racc

Assuming the phase performs financially better in operation than the buses on that phase, this would be a benefit to TransLink.

Given the passenger demand on central broadway, pretty safe assumption in this case I think.

[fever]

Originally Posted by Jared

There's a difference between building it in two phases, and opening it in two phases. You can commit to the whole thing at once, and still open it in phases (i.e. Millenium Line opening to Braid first, then Commercial later).

I also like dleung's plan, it's pretty much the same thing as I want, although I'm not entirely convinved of the need for a Wesbrook Station, I think one station at UBlvd and East Mall (to integrate with the bus loop) should be sufficient.

Yeah. I agree. It's more or less an illustration of the consensus view on here. A station further south at UBC (od's preferred alignment) could be worthwhile, but I don't see the need for a station at the village, unless UBC has plans for the area.

I'd question the Oak station, too. Cambie and Granville are both five blocks away. It's borderline, but probably necessary because of VGH and the office district there.

[agrant]

Yea, Oak could be a future station. A station at Cambie isn't that much further from VGH. All the transit going to/from Richmond would connect with the Canada Line.

Regarding boring tunnels... Unless there is a boring machine shortage, you can have more than one boring machine. Might get the job done a little quicker. Just thought I'd point that out.

[deasine]

I'm not so sure about that. It seems that Willow B-Line Stop is used a lot:

Eastbound
UBC		 66%
Westbrook	 82%	<- load leaving UBC
Sasmat		 80%
Alma		 83%
Macdonald	 83%
Granville	 90%
Willow		 95%
Cambie		100%	(11,000 pass/day)
Main		 91%
Clarke		 87%

Westbound
Commerical	 97%
Clarke		 98%
Main		100%	(12,000 pass/day)
Cambie		 93%
Willow		 85%
Granville	 69%
Macdonald	 67%
Alma		 66%
Sasmat		 65%	<- load coming to UBC
Westbrook	 43%