Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[hollywoodnorth]

Go Falco Go!
Go Gordo Go!

[mr.x]

What about the UBC and Surrey extensions? Any chance that those will be fast tracked to 2011?

[jlousa]

No, the studies need to be done first. The feds are willing to speed up infrastructure money but only if it can be justified. That's not to say the projects aren't warranted, but they have to be able to prove it. So the studies need to be completed, so we'd be looking at 2012 at the very earliest before we can start, I think the consensus is 2014 is when we can expect action.

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by hollywoodnorth

Go Falco Go!
Go Gordo Go!

Why do you keep saying that?

All Falco ever does is commission a study to delay actual start of construction on anything

All Gordo ever does is repackage existing projects and announce them as new and promise to provide enough money to not start anything without the Feds, local government and an unnamed third party kicking money in.

I'd rather they stop this 🞵🞵🞵🞵 and just get on with construction.

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by lightrail

Why do you keep saying that?

All Falco ever does is commission a study to delay actual start of construction on anything

All Gordo ever does is repackage existing projects and announce them as new and promise to provide enough money to not start anything without the Feds, local government and an unnamed third party kicking money in.

I'd rather they stop this 🞵🞵🞵🞵 and just get on with construction.

Well, in all fairness, I believe that Falcon is doing these studies as a prerequisite to getting on with the projects. For all intensive purposes, these lines have the full backing of the provincial government.

Now, they need the approval (and funding) of the feds -- hence the studies. So in a way, these studies are a huge positive. They represent a big first step in the long process of getting these projects built -- and hopefully long before the original timelines that were set, given the feds desire to stimulate the economy with infrastructure development.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

Well, in all fairness, I believe that Falcon is doing these studies as a prerequisite to getting on with the projects. For all intensive purposes, these lines have the full backing of the provincial government.

Now, they need the approval (and funding) of the feds -- hence the studies. So in a way, these studies are a huge positive. They represent a big first step in the long process of getting these projects built -- and hopefully long before the original timelines that were set, given the feds desire to stimulate the economy with infrastructure development.

The only problem is that all those studies go out of the window if there is a government change - and right now NDP is in the lead...

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by WBC

The only problem is that all those studies go out of the window if there is a government change - and right now NDP is in the lead...

Sort of like deja vu after the turnover with the government in power in the new millennium......personally, I think the Liberals will still win the election but only by a slim margin. In 2012, from my current of view of the political climate, the NDP might win government again.

[NetMapel]

You got to follow protocols and procedures to start such a major project. This study, hopefully, is all just paper work to definitively start the sky train extansion in the near 5-years future.

[deasine]

How long are the studies going to take? A year or two by the max... they only need another half a year to finalize of finances and boom construction can begin in 2011 or early 2012. =D Or am I being too ambitious...

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by deasine

How long are the studies going to take?

1-1.5 years each? At the most, which is very unlikely, 2 years.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Jared

Next summer seems like a really tight deadline to start by. They still need to get funding in place, decide on a P3 model (since its pretty clear they're going to have a $200m shortfall), complete a conceptual design, issue an RFQ, evaluate the RFQ and issue RFP, give the various companies at least a couple months to get a preliminary design done, a bit more time to get all the financial side of things completed and submitted, pick a prefered proponent and negotiate a final contract with said proponent.

The only thing I can really see them doing is "pre-construction" work, such as relocating major utilities, expropriating and demolishing properties that will obviously need to be used (i.e. those at the tight curve just before Lougheed Station), and maybe doing some preliminary grading and pre-loading of some sections (i.e. the section in Port Moody along the rail corridor).

The danger is, the more you start doing, the less flexibility you give to engineering companies to come up with innovative designs.

Also, IIRC, the precast yard for the Millenium Line was located somewhere in Port Moody. Where exactly is this site, and could it be used again?

Agreed wrt a P3 model and getting the bidding etc done - but do we know for certain that it will be a P3 project?

Much of the design was already done for the PMC Line back in 2002 - hopefully they won't be re-doing work that has already been done.

The M-Line precast yard was - I think - on the present site of the Aria condo project, so it wouldn't be available.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by officedweller

but do we know for certain that it will be a P3 project?

they seem to be 200 million short, and no level of government seems to be saying they'll toss in that extra bit of money (the focus seems to be on the feds matching the province's contribution). the last couple pages of the evergreen line buissness case also seemed to indicate they were leaning towards p3.

[mr.x]

In the current global economic climate, I would think it would be quite difficult to do a P3.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by lightrail

Why do you keep saying that?

All Falco ever does is commission a study to delay actual start of construction on anything

All Gordo ever does is repackage existing projects and announce them as new and promise to provide enough money to not start anything without the Feds, local government and an unnamed third party kicking money in.

I'd rather they stop this 🞵🞵🞵🞵 and just get on with construction.

as i've mentioned before, people love the "shovels in the ground, lets start building it today!" aesthetic, but it's a very irresponsible way of doing things. i dont think people realize how much work needs to be done before any construction can start. you can't "just start". the feds seems to want studies before they commit any cash (and it makes sense to get cash from the feds, all the other provinces are doing it).

we have never had a definitive study for either of the Broadway or Surrey projects (in their current form at least), it makes sense to do one. there's more to most studies than deciding "skytrain or lrt". they'll establish a construction timeline, a conceptual design, identify methods of reducing costs, recommend a buissness model etc.

I'm not really sure what you mean by gordo "repackaging existing projects", there's a reason many of these projects have been kicking around for a long time - they make sense to build. now, if you mean pulling ridiculous stunts like re-announcing the canada line as a "new" project 2.5 years after it's started construction, then i agree. but hey, that's politics.

[ravman]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

In the current global economic climate, I would think it would be quite difficult to do a P3.

ahhaha you would THINK so... but the Gordo and company are going to force a P3 who is then going to turn around and cut corners left right and center.... you saw how they botched the Canada line... single tracking, cut/cover 40m platforms etc etc.... I already see SNC Lavalin outside the gordo's office trying to win the contract and so they can botch yet another rapid transit.


The NDP, i believe, in their policies supports a ALRT to Douglas College and with a change in government, they are going to actually build the thing. Everyone wants this done sooner rather than later and Because Everyone Matters, the NDP is actually going to build a line out beyond Coq Station.

Sorry i know the truth hurts, but it was the NDP that built the Millennium Line in a manner that was compatible with the existing system and the Liberals built the Canada line using a different technology, which meant increased cost for a OMC and different trains. The logical thing was to connect it to Waterfront station and have it more convenient for "Everyone". It was the NDP who built switches and a third track to accomodate a future extension beyond Coq Station!

Originally Posted by mr.x2

Skyscraperpage Archives - previous Canada Line topic: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=112753&page=76
- Waterfront to Bridgeport: 10 minutes
- Bridgeport to YVR: 20 minutes
- Bridgeport to Richmond Centre: 20 minutes

SERVICE PLAN (will kick in when line gets busier)

Early Morning
- Waterfront to Bridgeport: 6 minutes
- Bridgeport to YVR: 12 minutes
- Bridgeport to Richmond Centre: 12 minutes
Late Night
- Waterfront to Bridgeport: 10 minutes
- Bridgeport to YVR: 20 minutes
- Bridgeport to Richmond Centre: 20 minutes

The fact of the matter is the Canada Line, off peak times will be running every 20 minutes (10 in vancouver) and i tell you waiting 6ish minutes for a skytrain at Lake City Way or Production or whereever on a late evening, is bad enough.... the last thing British Columbians want is this government to build a botched project that has a train every 20 minutes or something to go to Coquitlam especially after changing trains at Lougheed ( provided they do not integrate it) and Broadway/Commercial.

[SpongeG]

i like to think we BC'ers and Canadians in general are not such spoiled whiney people

if all we have in life is waiting on a train we have it pretty darn good

and if thats a problem than people need to rexamine thier lives and travel to less fortunate places a little more often to realize just how incredibley fantastic they have it living in Canada

[jlousa]

Can you write a post without mentioning the NDP? Seriously enough already.

The fact that the Canada Line is a P3 project will ensure that frequency will be increased as much as possible as quickly as possible. It is in the operators best financial interests to ensure maximum volume, if they leave the frequencies the way they are they will result in reduced ridership and reduced revenues. They will do whatever then can to attract the most volume they can so long as the frequencies are justified. Don't think for a second that they will be shooting for their minimum contract payouts.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by ravman

ahhaha you would THINK so... but the Gordo and company are going to force a P3 who is then going to turn around and cut corners left right and center.... you saw how they botched the Canada line... single tracking, cut/cover 40m platforms etc etc.... I already see SNC Lavalin outside the gordo's office trying to win the contract and so they can botch yet another rapid transit.

P3 does not equate to single tracking, cut&cover, and 40m platforms. That's just all based on the things the company who's partially paying for the line wants to do. Bombardier's contract didn't include any of this, or at least not to the extent of InTransit BC's proposal.

We ended up with a great line that can do it's job for at least the next seven years. After that, we only need to purchase more trains.

The [COLOR="DarkOrange"]Sorry i know the truth hurts, but it was the NDP that built the Millennium Line in a manner that was compatible with the existing system and the Liberals built the Canada line using a different technology, which meant increased cost for a OMC and different trains. The logical thing was to connect it to Waterfront station and have it more convenient for "Everyone". It was the NDP who built switches and a third track to accomodate a future extension beyond Coq Station! [/quote]

Sorry, I know the truth hurts... but under the NDP... the Millennium Line was delayed for months and months.

I can't believe you mentioned about Canada Line... there is no reason why the Canada Line should be connected with the rest of the SkyTrain network. It would've cost a lot more for ALRT technology instead of conventional rail. There is no need to connect the two networks together as people from Burnaby wouldn't be taking the SkyTrain all the way to downtown back down to Richmond. It serves two different kinds of commuters. A new OMC would've been needed as the current OMC is almost maxed out to the limits.

If I didn't recall wrong, the RFPs made sure that Bombardier did not combine rolling stocks with the SkyTrain so that it would make it fair for all companies, SNC/Lavin, Bombardier, MTRC, etc., who were bidding for the Canada Line contract.

Originally Posted by ravman

The fact of the matter is the Canada Line, off peak times will be running every 20 minutes (10 in vancouver) and i tell you waiting 6ish minutes for a skytrain at Lake City Way or Production or whereever on a late evening, is bad enough.... the last thing British Columbians want is this government to build a botched project that has a train every 20 minutes or something to go to Coquitlam especially after changing trains at Lougheed ( provided they do not integrate it) and Broadway/Commercial.

I agree that it's long, but it's quite an improvement to our current 98 B-Line system either way. Your point about the Lougheed+Coquitlam thing is not valid as they are most likely combining the two lines together. TransLink's recent study shows that the Evergreen Line will be running from Douglas College to Commercial Drive (UBC when the extension opens) and the M-Line will run from either Waterfront to Lougheed or Columbia to Lougheed.

[ravman]

Originally Posted by deasine

We ended up with a great line that can do it's job for at least the next seven years. After that, we only need to purchase more trains.

Sorry, I know the truth hurts... but under the NDP... the Millennium Line was delayed for months and months.

I can't believe you mentioned about Canada Line... there is no reason why the Canada Line should be connected with the rest of the SkyTrain network. It would've cost a lot more for ALRT technology instead of conventional rail. There is no need to connect the two networks together as people from Burnaby wouldn't be taking the SkyTrain all the way to downtown back down to Richmond. It serves two different kinds of commuters. A new OMC would've been needed as the current OMC is almost maxed out to the limits.

If I didn't recall wrong, the RFPs made sure that Bombardier did not combine rolling stocks with the SkyTrain so that it would make it fair for all companies, SNC/Lavin, Bombardier, MTRC, etc., who were bidding for the Canada Line contract.

Purchase more trains after ONLY 7 years- that is a very long foresight....

the Millennium Line delayed for months... the Evergreen line has been "Delayed" since 2001

yes a new OMC would have been needed, but it is more efficient to have 2 big ones that can also accomodate the extension to UBC, Coq station and Langley. - also people who are going to the airport may be coming from the tricities, or Burnaby or New West or Delta/Surrey et al... all of those people have to transfer at Waterfront.

the RFP was done by the Prov govt namely the Falcon and company... they saw that Bombardier had an advantage to use a rolling stock and they also saw the large cash donations from SNC in their pockets and that is why they decided to put this in the RFP so that it gave SNC an advantage

[deasine]

Originally Posted by ravman

Purchase more trains after ONLY 7 years- that is a very long foresight....

Your point?

Originally Posted by ravman

the Millennium Line delayed for months... the Evergreen line has been "Delayed" since 2001

The Evergreen Line hasn't started construction yet has it? It's always been a long term plan. Yes it should've been built a little earlier... but it has made way for the Canada Line.

[QUOTE=ravman;3996639yes a new OMC would have been needed, but it is more efficient to have 2 big ones that can also accomodate the extension to UBC, Coq station and Langley.[/quote]

Ummm... yeah we will be building another OMC. I don't get your point.

Originally Posted by ravman

- also people who are going to the airport may be coming from the tricities, or Burnaby or New West or Delta/Surrey et al... all of those people have to transfer at Waterfront.

From Airport:

• Burnaby: Take Canada Line to Bridgeport/Marine Drive/49th Avenue to transfer to buses 430, 100, and 49. For North Burnaby residents, take the Canada Line to Waterfront Station and transfer to buses like 135. When M-Line extension opens, passengers can transfer to "UBC Line" from Broadway - City Hall.
• Delta/Surrey: Who in the right mind would take the SkyTrain back home to have to go up North and back down South East again. That's the most stupid thing I heard. Anyways... many buses at Bridgeport... including RapidBus, 351?, etc.
• Tricities (2020): Take Canada Line to Broadway - City Hall to transfer to the "UBC Line" (which will really be the Evergreen Line)

Originally Posted by ravman

the RFP was done by the Prov govt namely the Falcon and company... they saw that Bombardier had an advantage to use a rolling stock and they also saw the large cash donations from SNC in their pockets and that is why they decided to put this in the RFP so that it gave SNC an advantage

That's the most stupid thing I've heard.

At this point, you are trying way to hard here, providing uneducated unknowledgable rebuttals and statements, and making stuff up on the way. By the definitions of SSP, this could be considered as trolling. Stop it immediately, and yes this is a warning.