Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[Deez]

Originally Posted by Franky

I don't have numbers to back this up, but it seems to me that transferring to a BRT from a local route to then transfer to LRT inside the greenbelt will deter many from using public transit from outside the greenbelt. Having the LRT go outside the greenbelt means local collector buses can transfer directly to LRT. It also means that park&ride lots make sense - not the case with LRT inside the greenbelt. It would be nice if staff got those numbers so that councillors could consider them.

Who ever said suburban residents would have to transfer twice? There's nothing stopping OC Transpo from continuing to interline express routes on the transitway and have them terminate at LF, Blair, Baseline.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

If the city is to subscribe to the Pedestrian-Cyclist-Transit user-Motorist priority hierarchy, it should just commit to completely grade separated rapid transit. Unlike a streetcar scenario I think rapid transit at-grade will be a detriment to whatever pedestrian potential Carling has because it becomes a conduit more than a destination. This is the exactly case with Albert and Slater downtown where inconvenience to pedestrians far outweigh the advantages of proximity to transit. Carling will end up with long blocks where the opportunity to cross will be rare.

Personally I think the wisest solution is a cut and cover tunnel on the Byron corridor for rapid transit and the city should just bite the bullet. When you think of the fact that it would carry all the transit traffic to and from Kanata and most of Barrhaven, not to mention the entire urban west end, it is worth the money considering two rapid transit lines are being planned for Orleans alone.

*heart*

[Suzie]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

At grade intersections would have gates. Some less important intersections would be closed to crossing traffic (right turns only). Other intersections would allow crossing traffic, where LRT has to stop at a station anyways (Carlingwood, Maitland, Churchill, Merivale). The busiest intersections with lots of crossing traffic will have LRT underpasses (Woodroffe, Queensway/Kirkwood, Island Park/Holland). The number of stations and the number of underpasses will be subject to a cost/benefit analysis obviously.

I thought the headways in Calgary outside the central portion were five minutes during the peak period. But I’m sure others are in a better position to know than me.

Regardless, with two-minute headways (i.e., a train every minute) envisaged for Ottawa, I don’t think gates would be practical.

Here are my additional thoughts about Carling:

- You will need to include Parkdale and neighbouring portions with Island Park/Holland given that the Queensway interchange is on Parkdale and ambulances need easy access to the Civic Hospital (yes, the hospital is likely to move, but this won’t happen overnight).

- I think you will need an underpass at Churchill. Otherwise, north-south traffic will be diverted onto Kirkwood, which is already a heavily-used residential street. Residents would complain and the Kirkwood/Carling/Queensway intersection doesn’t need more traffic.

- I’m sure that the new Canadian Tire store would not appreciate being blocked off from half of the traffic on Carling. So you would need to do something with Clyde (probably in combination with Churchill).

Those are the ones I am familiar with. There may be others such as Sherbourne/Maitland (access to another Queensway interchange) and Sherwood Drive/Champagne/Loretta.

Residents and businesses that are located near or along other portions of Carling would also demand north-south connections. They would no doubt point to the existing Transitway trench between Bayview and Dominion where the entire portion is grade separated and many of the bridges over the trench connect streets that see little traffic. They would demand the same and you would likely end up with a trench/tunnel along the whole route and a huge price tag.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Deez

I don't disagree with your source, but I contend that bi-directional annual boardings is a better indicator of need for higher order transit than phpd volumes (unless of course there's a capacity crunch like in the downtown).

All of this was the fact that city staff put a minimum of pph of 7000, instead of a real number where cost recovery is faster than buses. I only said that most LRT lines in Toronto will be no way near that.

[Suzie]

Originally Posted by Franky

I don't have numbers to back this up, but it seems to me that transferring to a BRT from a local route to then transfer to LRT inside the greenbelt will deter many from using public transit from outside the greenbelt. Having the LRT go outside the greenbelt means local collector buses can transfer directly to LRT. It also means that park&ride lots make sense - not the case with LRT inside the greenbelt. It would be nice if staff got those numbers so that councillors could consider them.

I expect that the bus system would be restructured so that many local routes would use the BRT sections and go all the way to the main transfer stations (Blair, Hurdman, Lincoln Fields and Baseline). As they ride along the BRT sections, they would pick up and drop off passengers at the other Transitway stations. This would minimize the increase in the number of forced transfers.

[Suzie]

Originally Posted by Franky

Another aspect that floored me was that we have no agreement or understanding with STO WRT operations with the new plan!? How can this be?

Yes, it would be nice to know now what the plan will be with regard to STO buses. I understand that a separate inter-provincial study is looking at this. I’m not sure when it will be completed though.

If STO buses are going to be prevented from going into downtown Ottawa, my preference would be to send them to Lebreton Station. This would be much superior to having a separate LRT branch going to Hull, both in terms of cost and level of service. In particular, at Lebreton Station, STO riders would have access to the main LRT line, with its much higher frequencies. OC Transpo riders going to Hull could also transfer there and benefit from high-frequency STO bus service to/from Hull. In order to minimize ridership losses and rider inconvenience, it is critical that wait times be minimized. Service levels with a separate LRT branch would be considerably worse and this would impact ridership.

[Deez]

Slightly off topic...OC's new Orion VII Hybrid courtesy of apta_2050 on flickr:

[Franky]

Originally Posted by Deez

Who ever said suburban residents would have to transfer twice? There's nothing stopping OC Transpo from continuing to interline express routes on the transitway and have them terminate at LF, Blair, Baseline.

Isn't the plan to build on the Transitway? In that case, the LRT stops them from doing that. That's an advantage of the Carling route - leaves the transitway free for express and local buses.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by Deez

Slightly off topic...OC's new Orion VII Hybrid courtesy of apta_2050 on flickr:

I want to ride in one - where can I do that?

[Suzie]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

All of this was the fact that city staff put a minimum of pph of 7000, instead of a real number where cost recovery is faster than buses. I only said that most LRT lines in Toronto will be no way near that.

And what would that real number be? Would it take into account capital costs?

[Suzie]

Originally Posted by Deez

Slightly off topic...OC's new Orion VII Hybrid courtesy of apta_2050 on flickr:

I think that this is the bus I saw on Queen St. yesterday evening.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by Suzie

I expect that the bus system would be restructured so that many local routes would use the BRT sections and go all the way to the main transfer stations (Blair, Hurdman, Lincoln Fields and Baseline). As they ride along the BRT sections, they would pick up and drop off passengers at the other Transitway stations. This would minimize the increase in the number of forced transfers.

Right. It doesn't fix the park&ride though and you have a bunch of near empty buses running the greenbelt or low frequency service - not ideal.

You made another good point about left-turns into businesses. I don't think the remedy would be to grade-separate, but it certainly needs to be addressed. Maybe designated U-turn spots or something similar would work.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by Suzie

Yes, it would be nice to know now what the plan will be with regard to STO buses. I understand that a separate inter-provincial study is looking at this. I’m not sure when it will be completed though.

?! How about yesterday. How can we be voting on a plan without this information? This is so incredibly wrong.

Originally Posted by Suzie

If STO buses are going to be prevented from going into downtown Ottawa, my preference would be to send them to Lebreton Station. This would be much superior to having a separate LRT branch going to Hull, both in terms of cost and level of service. In particular, at Lebreton Station, STO riders would have access to the main LRT line, with its much higher frequencies. OC Transpo riders going to Hull could also transfer there and benefit from high-frequency STO bus service to/from Hull. In order to minimize ridership losses and rider inconvenience, it is critical that wait times be minimized. Service levels with a separate LRT branch would be considerably worse and this would impact ridership.

Why prevented? Do you have references for this topic, I have none.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Suzie

And what would that real number be? Would it take into account capital costs?

Yes, of course. Return of investment.

[Franky]

I just watched a 90 second "interview" of Leadman and Chirelli and the interviewer complained about the 14 hours to decide on the transit plan. Don't they know the TMP includes transit AND roads. A large number of people (probably most) spoke about road projects. One really interesting one was to build a tunnel to take traffic off of King Edward at the M-C (hwy 5) bridge.

Councillors said we should the time it takes and get it right (ish).

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Deez

Slightly off topic...OC's new Orion VII Hybrid courtesy of apta_2050 on flickr:

Ooh, 🞵🞵🞵🞵. Me like.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by Franky

Interesting. Calgary is used as a model of the best LRT plan, and you tell me this NE line 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵. Won't cut and cover on Byron be expensive with all those utilities to move?

I didn't say it was the best, I'm using it as a comparison because it works (well enough that its ridership has exceeded its infrastructure). The NE line is in the median of a road, and passes a number of major destinations, like Carling, and was the best example I could think of. It isn't as if the NE line has major problems, but it does interfere with pedestrians and cars, especially during the rush hour headways of 4-6 minutes (which should answer a question Suzie made in another post). If the main west leg of LRT went along Carling, it would probably have the same consequences to the pedestrian environment and traffic patterns as Calgary's NE Line.

Originally Posted by Franky

That's probably what makes the Calgary LRT cheap. In a way, if you go with grade separated everywhere, why not just use buses or trolley-buses? You don't need "big bunch" ability, smaller bunches will do.

I don't want to get into a trains vs buses argument when Ottawa has already decided on trains, for a reason. That's one reason I don't post much in this thread. That is what makes Calgary's LRT system cheap, but again, Calgary has outgrown its infrastructure, and it would be insanely expensive to grade-separate it now, and even with all our proposed (and expensive) improvements, we will never fix the problems associated with at-grade crossings. Ottawa will probably reach high levels of ridership quickly since it will take on existing ridership from the converted transitway, especially if it is built out to the suburbs. If Ottawa is going to spend a lot of money on a LRT system, it might as well make it a good one. And I agree that Ottawa's politicians are not accomplishing that very well.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

I didn't say it was the best, I'm using it as a comparison because it works (well enough that its ridership has exceeded its infrastructure). The NE line is in the median of a road, and passes a number of major destinations, like Carling, and was the best example I could think of. It isn't as if the NE line has major problems, but it does interfere with pedestrians and cars, especially during the rush hour headways of 4-6 minutes (which should answer a question Suzie made in another post). If the main west leg of LRT went along Carling, it would probably have the same consequences to the pedestrian environment and traffic patterns as Calgary's NE Line.

I think Calgary has some impressive capital cost to ridership numbers - much lower than average - that's what I was saying, didn't mean to target you. I guess it comes down to what's acceptable for what money? AFAIK, Carling doesn't have a big pedestrian presence.

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

I don't want to get into a trains vs buses argument when Ottawa has already decided on trains, for a reason. That's one reason I don't post much in this thread. That is what makes Calgary's LRT system cheap, but again, Calgary has outgrown its infrastructure, and it would be insanely expensive to grade-separate it now, and even with all our proposed (and expensive) improvements, we will never fix the problems associated with at-grade crossings. Ottawa will probably reach high levels of ridership quickly since it will take on existing ridership from the converted transitway, especially if it is built out to the suburbs. If Ottawa is going to spend a lot of money on a LRT system, it might as well make it a good one. And I agree that Ottawa's politicians are not accomplishing that very well.

The point I was trying to make was that trains carry so many people in one pass that headways allow stuff to happen in between. Buses would be harder to coordinate and would probably occupy much of the road "time" - no time for traffic to flow at grade crossings or pedestrians to cross. I see your point (I think) that with headways getting shorter, the ROW is now saturated. Time to tunnel? I think reality is that after 25 years or so rail systems need another HUGE capital investment and that's where Calgary is right now.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Ooh, 🞵🞵🞵🞵. Me like.

How much noise does a hybrid make when stopped?

Gatineau buses given year to stop idling on King Edward
Council OK's ultimatum after years of lobbying from Lowertown
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/city/story.html?id=85aaa7e8-84f0-4db9-92aa-bd909e68b59f

[Aylmer]

I have a hybrid car and let me tell you, when you hear the car slowing down in a futuristic *woooooooo* sound then silence, you wonder why anyone has a gas car...