Saskatoon Construction

[circle33]

Originally Posted by joelpiecowye

...and circle33 there is one highrise kinda build in this boom if you call a 15 story one. it is the riverfront.

For sure. I was mostly looking for an excuse to employ the expression, "between zero and fuck all", (which I did) although plans to build the Riverfront were actually released in the spring of 2004. Does the current boom extend back that far ?

[swilley]

^btw, I enjoyed the "between zero and fuck all" statement. In fact, it felt good as fuck to say.

[joelpiecowye]

anyways i found this on the web showing housing gains per city Saskatoon has the highest % gain in prices compared to any other city or house type

Detached Bungalows
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Q4 2007 Q4 2006 Bungalow
Market Average Average % Change
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Halifax $201,333 $188,667 6.7%
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Charlottetown $152,000 $145,000 4.8%
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Moncton $151,000 $147,100 2.7%
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Fredericton $155,000 $153,000 1.3%
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Saint John $196,500 $137,000 43.4%
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St. John's $157,667 $143,667 9.7%
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Atlantic $168,917 $152,406 10.8%
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Montreal $229,314 $217,500 5.4%
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Ottawa $308,583 $292,250 5.6%
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Toronto $413,375 $379,656 8.9%
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Winnipeg $214,494 $177,616 20.8%
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Regina $229,200 $150,375 52.4%
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Saskatoon $292,500 $188,500 55.2%
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Calgary $429,889 $408,833 5.2%
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Edmonton $336,786 $298,571 12.8%
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Vancouver $795,250 $707,500 12.4%
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Victoria $425,000 $380,000 11.8%
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National $337,555 $302,497 11.6%
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-----------------------------------------
Standard Two Storey
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Q4 2007 Q4 2006 2 Storey
Market Average Average % Change
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Halifax $231,667 $199,333 16.2%
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Charlottetown $180,000 $175,000 2.9%
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Moncton $135,000 $130,000 3.8%
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Fredericton $197,000 $187,000 5.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saint John $255,000 $203,300 25.4%
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St. John's $219,333 $196,667 11.5%
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Atlantic $203,000 $181,883 11.6%
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Montreal $342,491 $319,573 7.2%
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Ottawa $306,500 $287,000 6.8%
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Toronto $506,900 $469,545 8.0%
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Winnipeg $237,571 $198,621 19.6%
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Regina $199,000 $146,500 35.8%
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Saskatoon $321,250 $205,000 56.7%
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Calgary $461,811 $425,644 8.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edmonton $370,000 $325,714 13.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vancouver $895,000 $803,500 11.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Victoria $456,000 $417,000 9.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
National $399,738 $359,213 11.3%
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-----------------------------------------
Standard Condominium
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q4 2007 Q4 2006 Condo
Market Average Average % Change
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Halifax $148,500 $142,500 4.2%
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Charlottetown $100,000 $ 98,000 2.0%
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Moncton N/A N/A N/A
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Fredericton $126,000 $126,500 -0.4%
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Saint John N/A N/A N/A
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
St. John's $165,000 $146,333 12.8%
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Atlantic $134,875 $128,333 5.1%
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Montreal $201,912 $191,179 5.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ottawa $196,833 $182,750 7.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toronto $280,505 $254,019 10.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Winnipeg $124,270 $103,460 20.1%
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Regina $144,000 $ 96,500 49.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saskatoon $205,000 $124,000 65.3%
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Calgary $284,144 $259,400 9.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edmonton $240,500 $212,500 13.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vancouver $428,250 $386,000 10.9%
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Victoria $292,000 $238,000 22.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
National $240,395 $215,251 11.7%

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by swilley

^btw, I enjoyed the "between zero and fuck all" statement. In fact, it felt good as fuck to say.

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by joelpiecowye

anyways i found this on the web showing housing gains per city Saskatoon has the highest % gain in prices compared to any other city or house type

Detached Bungalows
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q4 2007 Q4 2006 Bungalow
Market Average Average % Change
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Halifax $201,333 $188,667 6.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charlottetown $152,000 $145,000 4.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moncton $151,000 $147,100 2.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fredericton $155,000 $153,000 1.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saint John $196,500 $137,000 43.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
St. John's $157,667 $143,667 9.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atlantic $168,917 $152,406 10.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Montreal $229,314 $217,500 5.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ottawa $308,583 $292,250 5.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toronto $413,375 $379,656 8.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Winnipeg $214,494 $177,616 20.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regina $229,200 $150,375 52.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saskatoon $292,500 $188,500 55.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Calgary $429,889 $408,833 5.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edmonton $336,786 $298,571 12.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vancouver $795,250 $707,500 12.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Victoria $425,000 $380,000 11.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
National $337,555 $302,497 11.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


-----------------------------------------
Standard Two Storey
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q4 2007 Q4 2006 2 Storey
Market Average Average % Change
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Halifax $231,667 $199,333 16.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charlottetown $180,000 $175,000 2.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moncton $135,000 $130,000 3.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fredericton $197,000 $187,000 5.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saint John $255,000 $203,300 25.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
St. John's $219,333 $196,667 11.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atlantic $203,000 $181,883 11.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Montreal $342,491 $319,573 7.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ottawa $306,500 $287,000 6.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toronto $506,900 $469,545 8.0%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Winnipeg $237,571 $198,621 19.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regina $199,000 $146,500 35.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saskatoon $321,250 $205,000 56.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Calgary $461,811 $425,644 8.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edmonton $370,000 $325,714 13.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vancouver $895,000 $803,500 11.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Victoria $456,000 $417,000 9.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
National $399,738 $359,213 11.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


-----------------------------------------
Standard Condominium
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q4 2007 Q4 2006 Condo
Market Average Average % Change
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Halifax $148,500 $142,500 4.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charlottetown $100,000 $ 98,000 2.0%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moncton N/A N/A N/A
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fredericton $126,000 $126,500 -0.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saint John N/A N/A N/A
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
St. John's $165,000 $146,333 12.8%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atlantic $134,875 $128,333 5.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Montreal $201,912 $191,179 5.6%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ottawa $196,833 $182,750 7.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toronto $280,505 $254,019 10.4%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Winnipeg $124,270 $103,460 20.1%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regina $144,000 $ 96,500 49.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saskatoon $205,000 $124,000 65.3%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Calgary $284,144 $259,400 9.5%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edmonton $240,500 $212,500 13.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vancouver $428,250 $386,000 10.9%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Victoria $292,000 $238,000 22.7%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
National $240,395 $215,251 11.7%

Wow Vancouver really skews the national average price for detached bungalows.

Our two storey segment has room to grow, perhaps the average price will pass Edmontons? Could be a good thing, means more dense development as less people can afford a large two storey home.

Good to see our condo pricing inching closer to the larger centers experiencing a condo boom in their downtowns. Perhaps our increasing prices are an indicator that investment and hi-rise proposals will begin to increase in our city, similar to Calgary or Edmonton.

Beyond an increase in housing prices followed by greater pressure for more dense development, we should also expect more homeless working poor unless the City and Provincial plan for affordable housing units ramps up to counter the large increase in purchasing prices/rental rates.

Unbelievable times

[Stewie]

From Today's StarPhoenix:

City aims for trendy downtown
By Matthew Kruchakof The StarPhoenix
The city is looking at moving its warehouse district yard to make room for residential and retail space in the unique urban area.


To help realize its vision of having a trendy downtown neighbourhood bustling with urban dwellers, officials are looking at filling the 24-acre yard with buildings that mirror the historic factories and warehouses that surround it.


“It’s a bit of a gem sitting there, quite frankly, to have that much land still in your downtown core. So I think it will have many great opportunities,” said Phil Richards, city manager.


The city has hired a consultant to investigate the possibility of moving the yards, but the relocation won’t take place for at least 10 years, said Alan Wallace, the city’s manager of neighbourhood planning.


Thecondominiumsandshopswouldbedesigned to look like the large brick warehouses and factories built during the first quarter of the 20th century, he said.


“We want to continue that character — that look and feel. It’s kind of reminiscent of the olden days when that used to be our economic engine in that area,” he said, adding that because it’s city-owned land they could require developers to recreate those impressive structures of the past.


The goal is to have 10,000 people living downtown, Wallace said, adding they’re almost halfway there.


With developers buying up the old buildings, like the former Bay building, Rumley Warehouse and King George Hotel to convert into high-end lofts, the city has also started taking steps to increase the density of the downtown.


The city’s executive committee is looking at a recommendation that would lead to the sale of the 80-year-old Arthur Cook Building at the corner of 24th Street and Ontario Avenue to be converted into condos.


“With the people down there we’re going to notice a character change for the better and at night it won’t quite be as empty. I think it will become a live place to be,” Wallace said.


But it’s not happening fast enough, said Coun. Darren Hill, who believes the yard should have been moved “yesterday.”


“Lets move (the city yard) to the outskirts of town somewhere. Get them right out of city centre,” he said.


Before that happens the city is going to extend 25th Street from First Avenue to Idylwyld Drive, Richards said. The city will open up the north portion of its yards to make room for the road, which should be completed by 2009.


The city is also contemplating the sale of the John Deere building on Ontario Avenue which could be converted into lofts. That won’t happen until the yard is moved, Richards said, because it houses engineering works division staff who need to be located near the city yard.


“As River Landing would become the anchor to south downtown the warehouse district becomes the anchor to north downtown,” he said.


[email protected]

[psych1]

Originally Posted by Stewie

From Today's StarPhoenix:

City aims for trendy downtown



Thecondominiumsandshopswouldbedesigned to look like the large brick warehouses and factories built during the first quarter of the 20th century, he said.


“We want to continue that character — that look and feel. It’s kind of reminiscent of the olden days when that used to be our economic engine in that area,” he said, adding that because it’s city-owned land they could require developers to recreate those impressive structures of the past.

[email protected]

^^ this part worries me a little, as it sounds kind of "Disneyworld". I hope they don't over regulate it. Successful warehouse districts have to blend old with new, or they become too kitchy (sp?). I am all for saving old buildings, but not for copying them when you are building new anyway. Anyone else have thoughts?

[macca]

That whole article is pretty scary. It's like finding out they are finally going to make your favourite childhood cartoon into a movie, but the director/writer is the biggest hack in Hollywood. You're on board with the idea, but you know the execution is going to be terrible. I agree with psych1, nobody wants to see a cardboard cutout ghost town. I'd like to see some architectural controls in conjunction with a specially created zoning disrict (a la River Landing and some of the big box areas), but it has be done very carefully.

The 10 year time line is the thing that bothers me the most. Moving the city yards has been discussed for ages, why is there a 10 year window like they just came up with idea yesterday?

[swilley]

Not suprised. There is no architectural imagination in this city, and it looks like that will continue in the new warehouse district. Just a few questions still remain; Will it be brown brick with pink stucco? or red brick with brown stucco?

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by swilley

Not suprised. There is no architectural imagination in this city, and it looks like that will continue in the new warehouse district. Just a few questions still remain; Will it be brown brick with pink stucco? or red brick with brown stucco?

I read the entire Saskatoon construction thread from start to finish last night and LOL several times after reading your posts referring to our brown brick syndrome...Do you often experience bad dreams or nightmares involving brown brick, red brick and pink stucco?

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by Stewie

From Today's StarPhoenix:

City aims for trendy downtown
By Matthew Kruchakof The StarPhoenix

The city is looking at moving its warehouse district yard to make room for residential and retail space in the unique urban area.

To help realize its vision of having a trendy downtown neighbourhood bustling with urban dwellers, officials are looking at filling the 24-acre yard with buildings that mirror the historic factories and warehouses that surround it.

“It’s a bit of a gem sitting there, quite frankly, to have that much land still in your downtown core. So I think it will have many great opportunities,” said Phil Richards, city manager.

24 acres sounds bigger than I remember. Need to find a map of this city yard for reference, I'll find a map later this afternoon or if someone else can find one before then and post it...

The city has hired a consultant to investigate the possibility of moving the yards, but the relocation won’t take place for at least 10 years, said Alan Wallace, the city’s manager of neighbourhood planning.

10 years eh, 2018? I think it will happen before then, possibly 2012 at the earliest, more likely 2014

Has much to do with demolishing the Mitchell's Meat Packing Plant, the South Bridge, Cameco and everything else down there (additional residential development in Stonebridge, the small segment of land between Montgomery and Parkridge/Fairhaven identified as future residential).

The condominiums and shops would be designed to look like the large brick warehouses and factories built during the first quarter of the 20th century, he said.

“We want to continue that character — that look and feel. It’s kind of reminiscent of the olden days when that used to be our economic engine in that area,” he said, adding that because it’s city-owned land they could require developers to recreate those impressive structures of the past.

I support the idea in principle, but I have no knowledge or experience with these sorts of developments (I've been to Disneyland, does that count )

Beyond continuing the character of the warehouse district, there should be some funky abstract looking things (that crazy looking Winnipeg riverfront building comes to mind), and possibly some sleek mid-rise glass and steel (but it should reflect the character of the warehouse district in the design...somehow, I'm a wannabe architect but I am sure it can be done right).

The goal is to have 10,000 people living downtown, Wallace said, adding they’re almost halfway there.

Time to make a new goal, lets shoot for at least another 10,000+

With developers buying up the old buildings, like the former Bay building, Rumley Warehouse and King George Hotel to convert into high-end lofts, the city has also started taking steps to increase the density of the downtown.

Yes, and where are the 30+ floor condo buildings built with glass and steel? Less 15-20 storey brick box behemoths okay

The city’s executive committee is looking at a recommendation that would lead to the sale of the 80-year-old Arthur Cook Building at the corner of 24th Street and Ontario Avenue to be converted into condos.

I wonder what price they expect for the Arthur Cook Building? The interior is probably in decent condition, although would need extensive work to convert it from office to residential use.

“With the people down there we’re going to notice a character change for the better and at night it won’t quite be as empty. I think it will become a live place to be,” Wallace said.

What will anchor the warehouse district though? A new stadium, large public venue/park? Something else? Police Station? Relocate the Main Library?

But it’s not happening fast enough, said Coun. Darren Hill, who believes the yard should have been moved “yesterday.”

“Lets move (the city yard) to the outskirts of town somewhere. Get them right out of city centre,” he said.

How about the Holiday Park Industrial area? Maybe the new Cameco addition will house expanded city yard operations as well

Before that happens the city is going to extend 25th Street from First Avenue to Idylwyld Drive, Richards said. The city will open up the north portion of its yards to make room for the road, which should be completed by 2009.

25th Street will be completed by 2009, end of 2009? They must have plans to begin construction and consolidation for 2008. Open up the north portion of the yards summer 2008?

The city is also contemplating the sale of the John Deere building on Ontario Avenue which could be converted into lofts. That won’t happen until the yard is moved, Richards said, because it houses engineering works division staff who need to be located near the city yard.

After reading our entire construction thread, I was reminded that the city may move city yard operations to Cameco's 11th Street building and property. The whole Cameco/city yard relocation is intertwined in so many ways (if you follow the trail )

“As River Landing would become the anchor to south downtown the warehouse district becomes the anchor to north downtown,” he said.
[email protected]

I share the same view, but what anchors the warehouse district?

[psych1]

There is lots of time to let these thoughts be known more widely, so I encourage everyone to spread the word. Letters to the editor, mayor or councillor are a good start. Councillor Hill is in my area and he seems keenly interested in this area, so I will be writing to him.

There is still a lot of small town thinking by planners and councillors. I think it would help if more of them came from outside Saskatchewan, so that we could learn from the experiences of other places (brief junkets to Calgary, Edmonton, and Regina don't give them a very accurate picture of what it is to live in those places and no idea about the broader world), or if they read Jane Jacobs, but short of that, we can try to push them toward enlightment. Becasue Saskatoon is still so small, I think it doesn't take a whole lot to shift public perception and we are just the people to do it. March!

[psych1]

Originally Posted by SASKFTW

I read the entire Saskatoon construction thread from start to finish last night

Sleep problems ?

[prairieguy]

Thought I would enter the warehouse development commentary. I too worry about trying to re-create history in new construction. I think it is very hard to make it "fit" with existing "heritage" properties. I think it would be better to build new 'industrial' type design. That way, it still fits with existing nature of the area dating back to commercial properties, but can be constructed to represent the current...or dare we say future ideas of design.

They better make sure that they include some kind of green or gathering space as part of this development (even a small pocket park with fountain or some other feature). For an area to be vibrant, you need people to get out of their homes...they need a reason. Restaurants, bistro's, bars, etc would add to this environment.

And finally, though a bit off topic...it has been very quiet on the Lake Placid development for a while. Anyone else worried this could be falling through like so many other proposals before it?

[swilley]

Originally Posted by SASKFTW

I read the entire Saskatoon construction thread from start to finish last night and LOL several times after reading your posts referring to our brown brick syndrome...Do you often experience bad dreams or nightmares involving brown brick, red brick and pink stucco?

Pink stucco is the worst dream any ssp'er could have...

I agree with prairieguy's comments about a green space somewhere within the warehouse district. That should not be forgotten about. As far as lake Placid, I was under the assumption they are in the red tape phase of things. I thought there was an article a while back in the star kleenex stating a late 08or spring 09 start.

[drm310]

Don't expect any action on the 25th Street extension or the warehouse district until the south bridge is built. The city's put all their eggs in one basket - they won't pursue any other major infrastructure projects until funding for the south bridge is secured.

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by psych1

Sleep problems ?

No, not recently (knock on wood). Mainly lots of energy and obsessive passion for understanding our past, present and future environment

[Jonitecture]

IMO, i have nothing wrong with vreatig building that fit in with the other buildings in its surroundings, and every once and a while, a recreated historical building adds a lot. but, they should let buildings of other styles me built. and i agree. a park would be nice. on the subject of pink stucco, i hate it just as much as i hate plastic siding.

[Jerry]

Originally Posted by SASKFTW

24 acres sounds bigger than I remember. Need to find a map of this city yard for reference, I'll find a map later this afternoon or if someone else can find one before then and post it...

Maps and more - scroll "down" to downtown wharehosue district >>> http://www.city.saskatoon.sk.ca/org/city_planning/local_area_plans/index.asp?print=true

[psych1]

Originally Posted by Jonitecture

IMO, i have nothing wrong with vreatig building that fit in with the other buildings in its surroundings, and every once and a while, a recreated historical building adds a lot. but, they should let buildings of other styles me built. and i agree. a park would be nice. on the subject of pink stucco, i hate it just as much as i hate plastic siding.

The problem is that materials have changed, the construction methods of the past are far too labour intensive and therefore expensive, and many of the required tradespeople (e.g. masons) are in short supply, so builders who "recreate" older style building usually have to cut back somewhere and you end up with a cheap imitation. I recall reading about a man trying to build an accurate recreation of a Sears catalogue house from the early 1900's and it was costing him something like double what an ordinary modern house would cost due to woodwork and plaster etc.

As an example of what happens when you try to recreate history on a budget, the originally brick church on 25th street had at some point been covered with stucco which eventually failed. When they repaired it they laudably tried to return some of the original character by using brick accents at corners and base. However, for some reason (I don't have personal knowledge of actual reason, but one would have to assume cost and ease of application were prominent), they elected to use a modern styrofoam product, that from a distance looks like brick. So the church looks great from a distance (ie. driving down 25th), but if you walk by it, you can see it is fake. The same is true of many of the new, old style stucco, going up on retail buildings. It looks traditional from a distance, but fake up close. This imitation-old style looks especially ridiculous when built new in a strip mall (as do in my opinion, urban styled coffee shops like Starbucks). Since we want to encourage up close interaction with architecture, it is unfair to deceive in this way and it leaves the buidlings feeling somewhat hollow IMHO. Of course, this is pretty philosophical on my part, and I haven't thought through the implications completely, but I think it is a relevant consideration. I would rather an honest modern structure than a fake historical one, although I love true historical buildings ( I live in one), or ones that have been carefully renovated with a truly modern sensibility (I work in one).