Vancouver Amalgamation

[Migrant_Coconut]

Pretty sure djmk means "really?" as in "shouldn't we at least have a vote on it?" That's been the case for most other boundary shifts.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Pretty sure djmk means "really?" as in "shouldn't we at least have a vote on it?" That's been the case for most other boundary shifts.

Has it? During the amalgamation wave of the 70s Winnipeg, Toronto, etc. were all amalgamated despite local protests both from governments and citizens alike.

I agree that to do it in good faith it makes sense to have local approval, like is being done in Victoria/Saanich right now, but it's not something that "has" to happen. The province could dissolve Surrey tomorrow and there's legally nothing anyone can do about it.

[chowhou]

Reviving this thread to advocate for amalgamation once more, especially since it has been on the tongues of municipal politicians this election.

Saanich and Victoria will both have a non-binding question on municipal ballots about merging.

The Vancouver Liberals want to absorb the UEL into Vancouver.

Metro Vancouverites are split roughly 50-50 pro vs against amalgamation as of polling last year. Though apparently Burnaby and New West, the most geographically central municipalities, are the most opposed.

How are forum members feeling about amalgamation these days?

[AlessioSBT]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Reviving this thread to advocate for amalgamation once more, especially since it has been on the tongues of municipal politicians this election.

Saanich and Victoria will both have a non-binding question on municipal ballots about merging.

The Vancouver Liberals want to absorb the UEL into Vancouver.

Metro Vancouverites are split roughly 50-50 pro vs against amalgamation as of polling last year. Though apparently Burnaby and New West, the most geographically central municipalities, are the most opposed.

How are forum members feeling about amalgamation these days?

I say that every time someone comes to visit me I have to explain that Vancouver and West Vancouver or North Vancouver are different cities.
It seems absurd to me.

I understand the need of a discussion for Burnaby but north vancouver? Come on.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Politically, it appears to be a non-starter; different factions of YIMBYs and NIMBYs all have different incompatible interests that prevent a merger.

Logistically, it's pretty stupid how we have a dozen different fire and engineering departments, a dozen different library systems, a dozen different city halls (etc etc) and one unified infrastructure org that's mostly toothless and seemingly only exists to flush money down a toilet.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by chowhou

How are forum members feeling about amalgamation these days?

Currently the Cty of Vancouver is governed under the Vancouver Charter.
All other muniipalities are governed under the Local Government Act.
The Vancouver Charter provides some powers that the Local Government Act does not.

The question for Vancouver is what will it lose?
Likely it will lose special powers under the Vancouver Charter (like a separate Parks Board).

In terms of voting power and weight, you can look to the Metro Vancouver Council and how representaton is apportioned among the municipalities by population.

So the response will likely depend on the scope of the proposed amalgamation.
Some people just propose to amalgamate physically adjacent municipalities.
i.e. All of the North Shore togther, all of the Burrard peninsula together (Vancouver, Burnaby & New West) and then South of Fraser together.
I'm not sure where the Tri-Cities would end up (with Burrard Peninsula or a separate North of Fraser area).

This scheme would prevent the City of Vancouver from being completely overpowered by suburban interests (Vancouver would still dominate Burnaby and New Westminster).

Google search AI says this:

Vancouver is the largest city in British Columbia with an estimated population of about 750,000. Surrey is the second-largest city in the province at approximately 730,000, growing fast and expected to pass Vancouver in the late 2030s.

That's out of a total metropolitan Vancouver population of about 3 million.

[Glow Fun City]

I don't know if one big city is the way to go (ask Toronto), but we don't need so many separate ones either.

1. Bowen Island + Lions Bay + West Vancouver + District of North Vancouver + City of North Vancouver

2. UEL + Vancouver

3. Burnaby + New Westminster

4. Port Moody + Belcarra + Anmore + Coquitlam + Port Coquitlam

5. Pitt Meadows + Maple Ridge

6. Surrey + White Rock

7. Langley City + Langley Township

8. Tsawwassen First Nation

[jollyburger]

I mean look at the list of the most logical cities to amalgamate and those are the ones who probably hate amalgamation the most.

The only way it would ever happen is if BC/federal government promised some massive hundred billion dollar infrastructure campaign tied to amalgamation.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I mean look at the list of the most logical cities to amalgamate and those are the ones who probably hate amalgamation the most.

The only way it would ever happen is if BC/federal government promised some massive hundred billion dollar infrastructure campaign tied to amalgamation.

If BC wanted to amalgamate municipalities together, they wouldn't need to bribe anyone. Toronto and Ottawa were merged at the whim of the provincial government and people still complain about it to this day.

Personally I disagree with the thesis that Vancouver shouldn't amalgamate "because look at Toronto". I don't think I agree with the general political tide of Richmond of the North Shore but I also think I deserve a say in how transit development, land use, and bylaws are set in the areas I work, live, and play and so do they. It's very anti democratic to say "if we let people vote, I think they will vote for the wrong things, so they shouldn't be allowed to vote." It's actually insane to me that someone can live in Port Coquitlam and work in Vancouver and commute across the Burrard Peninsula every single day but they have zero political power in Coquitlam, Burnaby, or Vancouver. If Coquitlam voters decide they want politicians to kill transit improvements or cheap out on road maintenance the PoCo resident just has to accept that. It also grinds my gears a little that Vancouver can let its aquatic centres and community centres fall into disrepair to save Vancouverites a buck or two, but those same Vancouverites get to hop the border into Burnaby to use their facilities.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by chowhou

If BC wanted to amalgamate municipalities together, they wouldn't need to bribe anyone. Toronto and Ottawa were merged at the whim of the provincial government and people still complain about it to this day.

Personally I disagree with the thesis that Vancouver shouldn't amalgamate "because look at Toronto". I don't think I agree with the general political tide of Richmond of the North Shore but I also think I deserve a say in how transit development, land use, and bylaws are set in the areas I work, live, and play and so do they. It's very anti democratic to say "if we let people vote, I think they will vote for the wrong things, so they shouldn't be allowed to vote." It's actually insane to me that someone can live in Port Coquitlam and work in Vancouver and commute across the Burrard Peninsula every single day but they have zero political power in Coquitlam, Burnaby, or Vancouver. If Coquitlam voters decide they want politicians to kill transit improvements or cheap out on road maintenance the PoCo resident just has to accept that. It also grinds my gears a little that Vancouver can let its aquatic centres and community centres fall into disrepair to save Vancouverites a buck or two, but those same Vancouverites get to hop the border into Burnaby to use their facilities.

But I mean there's probably a lot of people with the same POV "a neighbouring municipality is getting a free ride with my tax money" but they'll be against amalgamation.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Politically, it appears to be a non-starter; different factions of YIMBYs and NIMBYs all have different incompatible interests that prevent a merger.

Logistically, it's pretty stupid how we have a dozen different fire and engineering departments, a dozen different library systems, a dozen different city halls (etc etc) and one unified infrastructure org that's mostly toothless and seemingly only exists to flush money down a toilet.

That is really it, if the North Vans and Langleys were to merge, the "city of" in both cases would be overridden by their NIMBY counterparts (I have similar opposition to the suggestions of merging New West with any of it's neighbours for this reason).

I think the answer is a regional government that's more accountable to the people of the region, and the uploading of some services to Metro Vancouver. Also having the Province reorganize its' services like healthcare and schools into a more unified structure. It makes no sense that we have both Vancouver Coastal Health and Fraser Health doubling up on their administration (and inevitably causing issues when one moves from one city in our region to another).

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by mcj

That is really it, if the North Vans and Langleys were to merge, the "city of" in both cases would be overridden by their NIMBY counterparts (I have similar opposition to the suggestions of merging New West with any of it's neighbours for this reason).

I think the answer is a regional government that's more accountable to the people of the region, and the uploading of some services to Metro Vancouver. Also having the Province reorganize its' services like healthcare and schools into a more unified structure. It makes no sense that we have both Vancouver Coastal Health and Fraser Health doubling up on their administration (and inevitably causing issues when one moves from one city in our region to another).

Fraser Health covers a lot more than the Lower Mainland, including Abbotsford, Chilliwack and Hope. I assume the services offered to those residents beyond the Lower Mainland would still have to be run, but by a much smaller agency that would then have to buy in specialist services currently available under the Fraser Health umbrella. I wonder if there would be any benefit really - you would just be replacing the current boundaries with different ones. Schools are based on municipalities, so wouldn't the same arguments about not wanting New Westminster to be a smaller part of a larger merged municipality apply to schools as well?

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by mcj

That is really it, if the North Vans and Langleys were to merge, the "city of" in both cases would be overridden by their NIMBY counterparts (I have similar opposition to the suggestions of merging New West with any of it's neighbours for this reason).

I still think I dislike this line of thought. At the end of the day all I hear is:

Problem: I don't like how my neighbours think and vote.
Solution: We should ensure the system is designed to make sure their vote doesn't count. At least not, "here".

What's to stop us from saying, "Well the Dunbar neighbourhood tends to be NIMBYs so we should expel Dunbar from Vancouver to ensure the voting pattern of the city is what I'd like." Secession is just amalgamation in reverse after all.

It feels very authoritarian to me and in the same vein as US Republican gerrymandering and voting laws.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Fraser Health covers a lot more than the Lower Mainland, including Abbotsford, Chilliwack and Hope. I assume the services offered to those residents beyond the Lower Mainland would still have to be run, but by a much smaller agency that would then have to buy in specialist services currently available under the Fraser Health umbrella. I wonder if there would be any benefit really - you would just be replacing the current boundaries with different ones. Schools are based on municipalities, so wouldn't the same arguments about not wanting New Westminster to be a smaller part of a larger merged municipality apply to schools as well?

Why couldn't they also be included? Just merge Fraser Health and Vancouver Coastal Health, it's really that simple. If Bella Bella can be a part of Vancouver Coastal Health, I see no real logistical challenge with extending that same area to Hope.

Schools aren't actually based on municipalities, there isn't a separate school board for each municipality, some are already merged. It really wouldn't be that difficult to merge them all into a Metro Vancouver school board. At the end of the day elected school boards can't/don't do much without Provincial funding anyway. And the current system locks teachers into a single school district with only being able to port their seniority between districts within BC once and never again. It would also give supply teachers a broader range rather than have to commit to a single district, helping with operational management over the long term.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I still think I dislike this line of thought. At the end of the day all I hear is:

Problem: I don't like how my neighbours think and vote.
Solution: We should ensure the system is designed to make sure their vote doesn't count. At least not, "here".

What's to stop us from saying, "Well the Dunbar neighbourhood tends to be NIMBYs so we should expel Dunbar from Vancouver to ensure the voting pattern of the city is what I'd like." Secession is just amalgamation in reverse after all.

It feels very authoritarian to me and in the same vein as US Republican gerrymandering and voting laws.

That's an incredibly exaggerated perception of what I was getting at, I don't think it's really relevant. I just support the status quo for this reason, I like that there's a few municipalities that are progressive compared to their counterparts.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by mcj

That's an incredibly exaggerated perception of what I was getting at, I don't think it's really relevant. I just support the status quo for this reason, I like that there's a few municipalities that are progressive compared to their counterparts.

I mean it's pretty relevant. It might not be what you directly advocate for but the direct effect of what you desire is that if someone lives on the wrong side of 10th they're not allowed to have any democratic voice in the local governance of New Westminster. It's not the same as MLAs or MPs where we all elect representatives locally to run the province/country as a whole, if you work and play but don't live within a city's borders you have no representation in the decision making of that city. Burnaby residents have absolutely zero voice on things that very much affect them in New West or Vancouver despite the fact we are all very clearly in direct proximity to each other and dependent on one another.

I'm sure American conservatives love it that they can draw electoral borders to make sure that there are representatives that are conservative and to disenfranchise the progressive voters, but that's not very democratic is it?

[officedweller]

There's also the question of having a ward system of municipal voting or an at-large system.
An amalgamated entity (even if just a few municipalities) may be too geographically spaced to have an at-large system.
Then you get into polutical dealing with ward councillors voting in blocks with other ward councillors...

[jollyburger]

Come back to this thread in 20 years and nothing will have changed except for maybe Metro Vancouver taking on more responsibility.

[djmk]

Originally Posted by mcj

That is really it, if the North Vans and Langleys were to merge, the "city of" in both cases would be overridden by their NIMBY counterparts (I have similar opposition to the suggestions of merging New West with any of it's neighbours for this reason).

I think the answer is a regional government that's more accountable to the people of the region, and the uploading of some services to Metro Vancouver. Also having the Province reorganize its' services like healthcare and schools into a more unified structure. It makes no sense that we have both Vancouver Coastal Health and Fraser Health doubling up on their administration (and inevitably causing issues when one moves from one city in our region to another).

city and district of NV share so many costs, its a bit wild that they have not amalgamated

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by djmk

city and district of NV share so many costs, its a bit wild that they have not amalgamated

The DNV even has a reunification page on their website to make the case for amalgamation.

https://www.dnv.org/government-administration/reuniting-district-and-city-north-vancouver