Immigrant population of cities around the world

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by muppet

Here are the ones for the Home Counties but without Hampshire -just the counties surrounding the city proper. -As mentioned many adjacent towns in these were excluded by FUA count, for being 'cities' in their own right (despite some being contiguous), or for not having high enough density (as their unit boundaries take in neighbouring country parks or forests):

https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/datasets/c2021ts004


^To get the count, you will need to fill in the 'Geography' sets - bear in mind you have to include the independent towns inside the counties too:


Surrey
Hertfordshire
Kent
Medway
Essex
Southend-on-Sea
Thurrock
Buckinghamshire
Milton Keynes

Kent includes Dover and Canterbury. That's soooo much London.

The FUA makes much more sense. The rest is just a regional count, London metro area + chuncks of the south-eastern corner of England around it. Like taking Dunkirk and Valenciennes inside the Lille figures, just because Dunkirk and Valenciennes are located inside the Nord department of which Lille is the capital city.

And Milton Keynes... it would be like including New Haven and Hartford, CT in the New York figures.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by muppet

Total for London and immediate Home Counties:
Total 4,854,140 foreign born and 98 communities in 5,958 sq miles (half the metro area for NYC, and 80% the size of Paris FUA)

4,845,775 if you strike off the Overseas Territory-born (a negligible difference). Unfortunately no way to separate out British citizens at birth who were born outside the UK (people born on military bases in Germany, white Brits born in Kenya etc.). But we're probably talking 4.5 million+ in London and the Home Counties, and approaching 4 million in FUA even when this is taken into account.

Very helpful, thanks for getting this.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Docere

Unfortunately no way to separate out British citizens at birth who were born outside the UK (people born on military bases in Germany, white Brits born in Kenya etc.). But we're probably talking 4.5 million+ in London and the Home Counties, and approaching 4 million in FUA even when this is taken into account.

Very helpful, thanks for getting this.

There are more than 400,000 people in the Paris Region who were born abroad and in former colonies (children of expats and colonial settlers, plus member of the native colonial elites). Britain had an even larger colonial empire than France, and with more of a tradition to emigrate than France, so their figure here would certainly be higher than 400,000. 500,000 at least. So that would restrict the immigrants proper to 3.6 million at the very max.

[New Brisavoine]

I've added the Toronto, Montréal, and Vancouver metro areas (international definition of the FUAs). I've added all the municipalities within each FUA.

Apples to apples figures, but in the case of Canada, due to government budget cuts, they count immigrants and place of births ONLY in private households, and they sample only 25% of the population (it's not a full census). What that means is the raw figures are probably underestimates (since the non-private households are not included), and on the other hand the % are probably overestimates (since nursing homes, seniors' residences, convents, university dorms, military bases, etc, which allegedly are more predominantly native Canadians, are not included).



In percentage of the total population.



Interestingly, once your remove the immigrants (incl. non-permanent residents), the total population (in private households) of these 3 metro areas become:
- Toronto metro area: 3,845,505
- Montréal metro area: 3,293,200
- Vancouver metro area: 1,375,415

That's the non-immigrant population of these 3 metro areas. Montréal is there very close to Toronto, and much higher than Vancouver. And these figures include the children of immigrants born in recent years. If you removed them, Montréal would probably be at the same level as Toronto. So what this shows is Toronto now dominates Montréal population-wise only due to the recent waves of immigrants (those arrived in the past 40 years or so).

[New Brisavoine]

For the Montréal metro area, we have 27.3% of foreign-born people in the metro area, but the percentages are the following in the various parts of the metro area:
- island of Montréal (1,959,335 people live there): 41.5% are foreign-born
- island of Laval (429,550 people live there): 33.5% are foreign-born
- rest of the metro area (2,134,705 people live there): 13.0% are foreign-born

[Docere]

White British born outside UK (London, 2021)

Europe 106,354
Africa 28,340
Middle East and Asia 20,984
Americas 29,321
Oceania 21,780

This is a proxy measure but I'll wager a solid majority of this 206,779 are "Brits abroad" and don't really belong in the foreign born proper population.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/datasets/RM010/ed...690-75dc-4d0f-889b-7db443a98192#get-data

[muppet]

OK, so are we going to apply that for everyone? Or is it, once again, just for London folks? And once again, based on one's own estimates.

[muppet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Kent includes Dover and Canterbury. That's soooo much London.

The FUA makes much more sense. The rest is just a regional count, London metro area + chuncks of the south-eastern corner of England around it. Like taking Dunkirk and Valenciennes inside the Lille figures, just because Dunkirk and Valenciennes are located inside the Nord department of which Lille is the capital city.

And Milton Keynes... it would be like including New Haven and Hartford, CT in the New York figures.

Would you really like me to do the same for examples of the areas of Paris or NYC 'FUA's?

Small towns surrounded by countryside, found in areas 20% larger to double the size of the equivalent London catchment? Yeah so Paris. Yeah so NYC.






^If you're including such villages 25 miles from the nearest edge of the urban area, I'd hazard you'd have to accept the equivalent for other cities too.


I've also mentioned time and time again why the FUA uses completely different units between different cities that create different results. Feel free to use them, but know it is a sliding scale, and I will point it out each time.

As reminder the immediate Home Counties is not just a signficantly smaller area than the other two, but also one third to one half higher in density, at 1,514 per sq mile. Paris FUA outside the City Of Paris is 1,142 per sq mile, NYC Metro 1,008.

[Docere]

You can get detailed country of birth by ethnic group here but only at the country level (England and Wales)

https://www.ons.gov.uk/datasets/create/filter-outputs/c46d0f9f-619b-4e0c-8caf-291d76ccb995#get-data

A majority of those born in Germany identified as White British for example. A lot of Brits were born on military bases in Germany.

Nearly half of South African-, Australian-, Canadian- and New Zealand-born identified as White British.

White British identity by country of birth (% of population born in country)

Germany 149,838 (56.9%)
South Africa 101,425 (46.5%)
Poland 73,685 (9.9%)
Romania 63,101 (11.7%)
United States 59,036 (29%)
Australia 55,411 (49%)
Ireland 35,185 (9%)
Canada 34,100 (49.4%)
Cyprus 28,005 (35%)
New Zealand 22,409 (45.6%)
Singapore 21,849 (53.3%)
France 20,843 (13.4%)
Lithuania 20,659 (12.5%)
India 20,226 (2.1%)
Italy 20,046 (7.2%)
Spain 18,721 (11.2%)
Hong Kong 18,312 (15.1%)
Malta 16,683 (67.6%)
Bulgaria 15,037 (10.1%)
Kenya 13,439 (10%)
Albania 10,510 (15.3%)
Portugal 10,464 (6.7%)
Latvia 10,209 (11.5%)
Netherlands 10,073 (15%)
Turkey 10,064 (7.9%)

[muppet]

In short London + immediate Home Counties is a first semblance to balancing the discrepancies created by the differing units. It could go even more to balance those discrepancies, I may add, but we'll limit it to a smaller catchment still. Half the size of the NYC one, 80% the size of the Paris one.

[muppet]

Originally Posted by Docere

You can get detailed country of birth by ethnic group here but only at the country level (England and Wales)

https://www.ons.gov.uk/datasets/create/filter-outputs/c46d0f9f-619b-4e0c-8caf-291d76ccb995#get-data

A majority of those born in Germany identified as White British for example. A lot of Brits were born on military bases in Germany.

Nearly half of South African-, Australian-, Canadian- and New Zealand-born identified as White British.

White British identity by country of birth (% of population born in country)

Germany 149,838 (56.9%)
South Africa 101,425 (46.5%)
Poland 73,685 (9.9%)
Romania 63,101 (11.7%)
United States 59,036 (29%)
Australia 55,411 (49%)
Ireland 35,185 (9%)
Canada 34,100 (49.4%)
Cyprus 28,005 (35%)
New Zealand 22,409 (45.6%)
Singapore 21,849 (53.3%)
France 20,843 (13.4%)
Lithuania 20,659 (12.5%)
India 20,226 (2.1%)
Italy 20,046 (7.2%)
Spain 18,721 (11.2%)
Hong Kong 18,312 (15.1%)
Malta 16,683 (67.6%)
Bulgaria 15,037 (10.1%)
Kenya 13,439 (10%)
Albania 10,510 (15.3%)
Portugal 10,464 (6.7%)
Latvia 10,209 (11.5%)
Netherlands 10,073 (15%)
Turkey 10,064 (7.9%)

OMG is this where it's coming from?? I get it now.

This isn't just 'Brits born abroad' or kids on army bases (that would be alot). It's about hw people self-identify on the census. You can identify as White British if you feel it.

I mean I get it if you're a White Hong Konger or Kenyan -more obvious, though arguable as to why - but for the rest of Europe, we really don't have millions of Brits living in say Germany or giving birth there and coming back.
You literally can select White British, because you consider yourself British and are White.

*Once again, though, feel free to use this but you'll need to do the same for the other cities too.

[muppet]

Polite reminder, I consider myself British but was born abroad, in Malaysia. My friend Neil Jusztachowski also considers himself British and was also born abroad -and speaks just as Cockney as me and has just as many decades living in Britain, being British GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.

However he identifies as White British born abroad. I cannot because I am not White -but that shouldn't be the issue.

[Crawford]

Do you consider yourself English tho? Britain isn't a nation-state but English identity is perhaps ethnic?

In Germany, there are lots of non-Germanic people who consider themselves German, but usually Slavs who immigrated a long time ago, working in the Ruhr factories and the like, and links to past identity are rare (last names Germanicized). Most longtime non-German ethnics, like postwar Turks, still don't identify as German, even if obv. German nationals.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by muppet

OMG is this where it's coming from?? I get it now.

This isn't just 'Brits born abroad' or kids on army bases (that would be alot). It's about hw people self-identify on the census. You can identify as White British if you feel it.

I mean I get it if you're a White Hong Konger or Kenyan -more obvious, though arguable as to why - but for the rest of Europe, we really don't have millions of Brits living in say Germany or giving birth there and coming back.
You literally can select White British, because you consider yourself British and are White.

No my point is not that. It's just a recognition of this "born in a country" doesn't necessarily mean foreign born.

The "German-born" are a real outlier here when over half are identifying as White English or White British. There was a very large British military presence in Germany for decades. And the ONS makes no distinction between "born in Germany on a British military base" and "German immigrant."

In post #1, Germany was categorized as a 50000+ country. But it should get a significant reduction. It almost certainly belongs in 20000-50000.

Anyway it's really only a few countries that are likely significantly impacted.

*Once again, though, feel free to use this but you'll need to do the same for the other cities too.

Where I can, I do do that. The American and Canadian data I've posted does not include citizens at birth born abroad.

Bruce Willis and LeVar Burton would be considered "German-born" by the UK standard but not by the US standard.

[Docere]

Anyway of the cities discussed New York has the most foreign born, Los Angeles and London next (depending on how you define them), Toronto fourth and Paris and Miami both vying for fifth. A little 🞵🞵🞵 for tat accounting about "immigrants" vs. "born abroad" doesn't radically alter this ranking.

In terms of countries represented, London/New York (90+), then Toronto (70+), then probably Los Angeles.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by muppet

Would you really like me to do the same for examples of the areas of Paris or NYC 'FUA's?

Small towns surrounded by countryside, found in areas 20% larger to double the size of the equivalent London catchment? Yeah so Paris. Yeah so NYC.

After all these years, you still don't seem to understand how metro areas work.

Provins (your first picture) is included in the Paris metro area, because a large enough percentage of its population in employment commute to Paris and suburbs for work. Dover and Canterbury have extremely small percentages of people commuting to London for work. At the 2011 census, only 2.3% of the people in the Dover District and 4.8% of the people in the Canterbury District commuted to Greater London. The percentages must not be much higher now. In comparison, at the same 2011 census, 18.9% of people in the canton of Provins commuted to the central area of 1,572 km² for Paris.

If we're going to include the entire Kent and the entire Berkshire in an extravagant London metro area, then the Lille metro area has 7 million inhabitants. Is Lille a larger city than Barcelona and similar in size to Madrid?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Docere

In post #1, Germany was categorized as a 50000+ country. But it should get a significant reduction. It almost certainly belongs in 20000-50000.

Or even less. Not all British soldiers were "White British". There were also Black, Asian, and mixed people, and there are also those who didn't self-identify their ethnicity in the census.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Docere

Anyway of the cities discussed New York has the most foreign born, Los Angeles and London next (depending on how you define them), Toronto fourth and Paris and Miami both vying for fifth.

Toronto and Paris are both 4th. Toronto metro area has 3,385,000 foreign-born, and Paris Region has 3,361,000 foreign-born, but the Paris metro area is slightly larger than the Paris Region, so the figures for the Paris metro area would place Paris at the same level as Toronto (or slightly above Toronto).

[Docere]

I'm talking about the foreign born/immigrant population, and not including those who are citizens at birth born "overseas."

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Do you consider yourself English tho? Britain isn't a nation-state but English identity is perhaps ethnic?

In Germany, there are lots of non-Germanic people who consider themselves German, but usually Slavs who immigrated a long time ago, working in the Ruhr factories and the like, and links to past identity are rare (last names Germanicized). Most longtime non-German ethnics, like postwar Turks, still don't identify as German, even if obv. German nationals.

It's definitely an ethnic group but if you go back far enough and people you think were "English" had different or mixed admixture. We thought our grandfather (born in Keighley) was as English as you can get but had some Irish while our "Irish" great-gran was actually Scandinavian. My German grandmother was a mix of German and Italian.