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  #301  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2026, 6:13 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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You know what, I'm going to wait to see if muppet can provide a link for the London and Home Counties figures before I comment further on London/UK. I agree London only is too limited, even if the bulk of diversity is there. It's interesting to see even if opens the floodgates to inflating metros. I'm just struck how a few don't line up at all (notably 30,000 fewer Jamaicans in a wider area) - is it the same data period?

Anyway it seems to me using the immigrant and non-permanent resident standard (as best as possible), London is certainly over 3 million in the city proper alone (and 4 million or so in the metro area), Paris is under 3 million, and New York around 6 million. Anyway you slice it London and New York have more foreign nationalities represented than Paris does.
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  #302  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2026, 6:29 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
You know what, I'm going to wait to see if muppet can provide a link for the London and Home Counties figures before I comment further on London/UK. I agree London only is too limited, even if the bulk of diversity is there..
I've already given the figures for the London metro area:
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Here are the apples-to-apples figures for New York, Paris, and London. These are the most recent figures for each city.

For London it's the internationally defined FUA, which corresponds quite well to the MSA. For Paris it's the Paris administrative region, which is slightly smaller than the FUA.



In percentage of the total population:

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  #303  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2026, 6:32 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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You've given one figure (total born outside UK), not specific countries of birth.
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  #304  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2026, 7:30 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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They have the full list of countries at a detailed local level, but the file contains more than a million lines. And in any case, the figures would not be comparable to US and French figures, since they don't count immigrants but people born in the foreign country. Their figures are comparable to the Spanish figures, but not to the US, French, and Canadian figures.

For example, even if you painstakingly went through the millions of lines to isolate "Kenya" in each unitary authority, district, and MSOA that constitutes the London metro area (FUA), you'd get, say, "89,168" (that's the total of Kenyan-born for London + South-East of England + East of England, so the total for the London metro area proper would be a bit smaller), but among those 89,168, only perhaps 55,000 are immigrants (therefore comparable to US, French, Canadian figures), and the other 34,000 are children of British settlers born in Kenya.

France and Britain ran large colonial empires, and human ties have remained strong (often with binational communities in the former colonies), so using "immigrants" for one country, and "foreign-born" (i.e. immigrants + children of expats, binationals, and colonial settlers) for the other leads to big differences in what we're comparing.
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  #305  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2026, 7:39 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Anyway it seems to me using the immigrant and non-permanent resident standard (as best as possible), London is certainly over 3 million in the city proper alone (and 4 million or so in the metro area), Paris is under 3 million, and New York around 6 million. Anyway you slice it London and New York have more foreign nationalities represented than Paris does.
Is that really surprising to anyone? I don't speak French so the nuances of accents and culture aren't obvious to me in French, but Paris seems easily the most "native" of those three cities. And by native I mean the degree of native-born people in the overall population.

There don't seem to be a lot of languages other than French and English (distant second place) spoke in Paris. In London and New York (especially) you constantly hear languages other than English being spoken.
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  #306  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2026, 8:13 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Is that really surprising to anyone? I don't speak French so the nuances of accents and culture aren't obvious to me in French, but Paris seems easily the most "native" of those three cities. And by native I mean the degree of native-born people in the overall population.

There don't seem to be a lot of languages other than French and English (distant second place) spoke in Paris. In London and New York (especially) you constantly hear languages other than English being spoken.
Immigration in Paris is less visible than in Anglo-Saxon cities, because society here is not organized around communities. The immigrants usually do not gather in communities. They don't own a neighborhood. There is no Little Italy, Little Tokyo, etc. There are only few exceptions (Wenzhou Chinese community in the 3rd arrondissement of Paris, Sri Lankans in some streets of the 10th arrondissement, etc). But by and large, people are mixed, they live and frequent mixed neighborhood, where the lingua franca is French.

You don't hear the accents, but I do. I was walking in a street in the Marais, and I passed by two White women chatting in front of a building's entrance door, and when I was near them I realized one had a Portuguese accent. This would have been lost on non-Francophones. To you it would have been very French and provincial, to me it sounded multicultural.

If we look at the numbers, the wider metro area of Paris has numbers not too far off from London (27% for Paris, 33% for London), and certainly above many metro areas in North America. But our immigrants tend to be less conspicuous (although in recent years it has changed a lot with the arrivals of many Black African migrants crossing the Med on boats, who are very visible now in the center of Paris).

As for languages, here are languages you can hear almost everyday in Paris (in no particular order): Lingala (I hear more and more Lingala these days), Wolof, Bambara, Maghreban Arabic, Kabyle (which would probably sound to you like Arabic, but it's a totally distinct language in fact), Tamil, Latin American Spanish (more and more), English (often American accent), Tagalog (always very loud), Russian (more and more, although like most people I cannot to this day distinguish Russian from Ukrainian).

Only at my gym, which is in a residential part of the city, there are always guys there speaking Maghreban Arabic (these are actually young white-collars who studied in engineering and business schools in France, immigrant themselves, came to France to attend these schools, it's not the low-skilled children of immigrants you see in the banlieue), Russian or Ukrainian (couldn't tell), Latin American Spanish, English and Tagalog (the Filipinos make a point never to speak French, we have to speak English to them). That's the languages you can hear almost everytime I go. More occasionally I've heard Vietnamese, German, Italian, Portuguese, and some other languages I can't remember now. There's also a guy I see everytime I go who is I believe Serb (judging from his physique and from the football jersey he wears sometimes), but he speaks only (slightly accented) French with the guys there.

I can't remember that my gym in the US and in London were more multicultural. To me, roughly as multicultural as my diverse gyms in London, and more multicultural than my gym in California.
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  #307  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2026, 10:18 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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I've added a couple more metro areas. Strictly comparable figures.

When I write "metro area", that means that's the international definition of the metro areas (FUAs). For the US, I've used the MSAs that correspond to the FUAs of these cities.
For Paris, the Paris Region is slightly smaller than the metro area (FUA), but there is no data for the metro area.



As a percentage of the total population:

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  #308  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2026, 10:52 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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So is Hamilton in or out when it comes to the Toronto FUA definition? I can't remember.
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  #309  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2026, 10:59 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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That's the definition of the Toronto FUA:
Ajax
Aurora
Brampton
Burlington
Markham
Milton
Mississauga
Newmarket
Oakville
Oshawa
Pickering
Richmond Hill
Toronto
Vaughan
Whitby
Barrie
Bradford West Gwillimbury
Brock
Caledon
Chippewas of Georgina Island First Nation
Clarington
East Garafraxa
East Gwillimbury
Erin
Essa
Georgina
Grand Valley
Halton Hills
Hamilton township (not the city)
Innisfil
Kawartha Lakes
King
Mississaugas of Scugog Island
Mono
Mulmur
New Tecumseth
Orangeville
Oro-Medonte
Port Hope
Scugog
Southgate
Springwater
Uxbridge
Whitchurch-Stouffville

And this is the definition of the Hamilton FUA:
Hamilton
Grimsby
Haldimand County
West Lincoln
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  #310  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2026, 11:02 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Barrie and Port Hope included - good grief.

I think I'm the only Canadian poster reading this thread at this point so I guess I'm alone in having a chuckle at that
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  #311  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2026, 11:29 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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I find it hard to believe there's more "rural land" separating London and Slough than Toronto and Barrie but it is what it is. A close approximation combines Toronto, Oshawa and Barrie Census Metropolitan Areas and the city of Burlington.

Toronto-Barrie-Oshawa 6,948,900
Foreign born 3,296,160
% 47.4

Last edited by Docere; Aug 10, 2026 at 11:41 PM.
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  #312  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2026, 11:57 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Barrie and Port Hope included - good grief.

I think I'm the only Canadian poster reading this thread at this point so I guess I'm alone in having a chuckle at that
Yeah, they even include Oro-Medonte township, at a considerable 110 km from downtown Toronto. That beats even Paris. We only have Foucherolles at 98 km from the center of Paris, that's the most distant exurb.

But then math is math, as distant as these are, Foucherolles must have more than 15% of its population in employment who commute to Paris and suburbs (can't even imagine how long the commute takes).

That said, I know people who live in Alençon (180 km from Paris as the crow flies) and who commute there morning and evening. It's a 35 minutes train ride from Alençon to Le Mans, then in Le Mans a 55 minutes high-speed train ride to the center of Paris. I know some people who do it driving. It's a 2 hour drive to reach the western gates of Paris if there is no traffic. Some guys do that 2-3 times a week.

A few years ago I had hairdresser in Paris, she lived in Laval in Western France, 245 km/152 miles from Paris as the crow flies. She and her husband owned a large house near the train station, and she took advantage of the new high-speed rail line: it's 1 hour and 20 minutes by high-speed train from Laval to Paris, then from the train station it's 15 minutes by métro to her salon near the Champs-Elysées. She commuted everyday.

France, US, and I believe also Canada are the countries of impossibly long-distance commutes.
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  #313  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2026, 12:03 AM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
I find it hard to believe there's more "rural land" separating London and Slough than Toronto and Barrie but it is what it is.
The issue is not rural land, the issue is Slough is strong enough to be its own urban center, with few people commuting to London, whereas Barrie is too weak an urban center to be its own metro area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
A close approximation combines Toronto, Oshawa and Barrie Census Metropolitan Areas and the city of Burlington.
That would also include the Port Hope CA, Kawartha Lakes CA, and Essa CA.
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  #314  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2026, 12:06 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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I don't know what they chose as the central commuting area for which the 15% threshold is used.
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  #315  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2026, 12:10 AM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
I don't know what they chose as the central commuting area for which the 15% threshold is used.
Central area is:
Ajax
Aurora
Brampton
Burlington
Markham
Milton
Mississauga
Newmarket
Oakville
Oshawa
Pickering
Richmond Hill
Toronto
Vaughan
Whitby

Barrie is its own central area (but with more than 15% of people commuting to the central area of Toronto, it became a satellite of the central area of Toronto).

The other areas are either the commuter belt of the central area of Toronto, or the commuter belt of Barrie.
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  #316  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2026, 12:28 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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Anyway, no need to get into a diversion of what should be included. Toronto has over 3 million foreign born and more than 70 countries with at least 5000 in the population. And interestingly closest in matching the regional distribution of the global population.
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  #317  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2026, 12:46 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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Also interesting to compare Montreal and Vancouver with Toronto. Montreal has a more distinctive profile from Toronto, and not surprisingly has a lot more immigrants from the francophone world. Vancouver has Asia-Pacific depth but not Toronto's breadth. It overlaps with Toronto in the sense that pretty much every foreign born community represented in Vancouver has greater numbers in Toronto. Two countries that make the 5000 list in Vancouver but not Toronto are Fiji and Singapore. Vancouver also has more born in Taiwan and Japan.

Montreal and Vancouver vs. Toronto

# of FBCs with more in Montreal than Toronto: 20
# of FBCs distinct to Montreal: 11
# of FBCs with more in Vancouver than Toronto: 4
# of FBCs distinct to Vancouver: 2
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  #318  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2026, 1:21 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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Los Angeles vs. New York

# of 5000+ FBCs in New York MSA: 94
# of 5000+ FBCs in Los Angeles MSA: 57
# of FBCs with more in Los Angeles than in New York: 22
# of FBCs distinct to Los Angeles: 2
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  #319  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2026, 10:43 AM
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Oh cooey! Did someone call ?

As discussed, the FUA stats use different units dependent on the city, which gives wildly different results between them.

So here are the 2021 census stats for London city proper - 3.576m foreign born over 94 communities as defined by the ONS. 'British Overseas Territories' are not Brits who live overseas, but mostly colonies in the Caribbean:

https://data.london.gov.uk/census/tools




Total FB 3,575,734

Here are the ones for the Home Counties but without Hampshire -just the counties surrounding the city proper. -As mentioned many adjacent towns in these were excluded by FUA count, for being 'cities' in their own right (despite some being contiguous), or for not having high enough density (as their unit boundaries take in neighbouring country parks or forests):

https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/datasets/c2021ts004


^To get the count, you will need to fill in the 'Geography' sets - bear in mind you have to include the independent towns inside the counties too:


Surrey
Hertfordshire
Kent
Medway
Essex
Southend-on-Sea
Thurrock

Buckinghamshire
Milton Keynes

Berkshire has no county row, so they just sum the 6 local Berkshire rows together
Slough, Reading, Wokingham, Windsor & Maidenhead, West Berkshire, Bracknell Forest.

Then under Country of Birth, obvs fill in anything not UK.

Da-nar!....



The tally is 1,278,406 foreign born in the immediate Home Counties. They mostly mirror London's pull, but add 4 more smaller communities to push over 5K - Slovakia 12,025 Ukraine (Pre-2022) 8,425, Lebanon 6,315, Chile 5,060

Total 98 communities over 5K for Greater London and immediately adjacent counties

Last edited by muppet; Aug 11, 2026 at 1:30 PM.
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  #320  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2026, 11:20 AM
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Total for London and immediate Home Counties:




Total 4,854,140 foreign born and 98 communities in 5,958 sq miles (half the metro area for NYC, and 80% the size of Paris FUA)

Last edited by muppet; Aug 11, 2026 at 1:38 PM.
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