High Speed Rail in Canada

[Nite]

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

If they're gonna go to Kingston maybe they should just have it parallel the 401 freeway from Toronto, then at Johnstown have it jog northward and parallel route 416 to Ottawa. Looks like there's enough room in the 416 median to put the rail smack-dab right in the middle of the freeway. At least this way they'd have less opposition from landowners.

It would be a longer route that way, but it looks like it would have less opposition, maybe.

You can put a train line in the median of the 401 but it will not be a high speed train as the 401 has way to many curves for that.
it would pretty much be at the speed of the existing via trains without having to deal with freight traffic.

Anyway i think all the money for alto should go to local transit systems expansion in the country, you would get much more bang for your buck.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

It’s the first step in a very long process that will benefit the whole country over the long-term.

"You should help us pay for our trailblazing $60-90B train by 2044, paving the way for you guys maybe to get something someday" is likely a very self-sabotaging political argument. The reasoning around X% of residents is very weak as well. And actually this scale of project in the tens of billions is in the range where it needs some kind of legible rationale nationally.

I support the project and hope it happens, but I think this style of thinking drives regionalism. The correct answer is something like "yes, this is for Ontario and Quebec, but it's worth it for reasons X, Y, Z, and we will provide direct infrastructure value for every part of the country, even though the type of investment may differ because the needs and wants differ". If this doesn't broadly connect politically, this train probably won't even happen, because it needs support over a timescale longer than a typical government lasts. It would be smart to communicate something like a national transportation network strategy of which this a part.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Nite

You can put a train line in the median of the 401 but it will not be a high speed train as the 401 has way to many curves for that.
it would pretty much be at the speed of the existing via trains without having to deal with freight traffic.

Anyway i think all the money for alto should go to local transit systems expansion in the country, you would get much more bang for your buck.

This is not how funding works. Once a project is cancelled, it does not go to other projects. It is just a loss.

The problem is that we are not addressing intercity travel in the most densely part of the country. It is already a major problem. Highway 401 in Toronto is the busiest highway on the continent and there are no options getting through the chokepoint that is Toronto since we foolishly privatized Highway 407

[James Bond Agent 007]

Originally Posted by Nite

You can put a train line in the median of the 401 but it will not be a high speed train as the 401 has way to many curves for that.
it would pretty much be at the speed of the existing via trains without having to deal with freight traffic.

Anyway i think all the money for alto should go to local transit systems expansion in the country, you would get much more bang for your buck.

I was only talking about the median of the 416 (and even then, not all of it), not the 410. If they did this clearly they'd have to put the rail line off to the side of the 410.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Building HSR in the corridor is akin to building subways under downtowns and inner city neighborhoods. The population density warrants it. You've got three of the largest six cities in Canada (including the largest and second largest), plus a bunch of other metropolitan areas at or above the 500K mark, along with a good number of 100K+ metros.

Yeah i think that's the best way to look at it. The route will improve transportation to the country's two largest population centers and the national capital, all three of which being among the most likely parts of the country for people of other regions to visit. If someone wants to take the train from Halifax to Toronto, the person will have an improved experience even if the improvement only covers part of the route. Same for a person who flies into Ottawa fr a few days and wants to visit Montreal while they're there. Really not that different from how the Bloor line can improve trips for people living in Mississauga even though the line doesn't "serve" it.

[someone123]

I think the payoff for people in Halifax who could have taken a 2 hour flight to be able to tack a second HSR leg to Toronto onto their grueling 20-hour VIA journey is extremely marginal.

What would be relevant in the region and beyond is that the HSR could tie in with air travel. And in fact you could build a whole new airport along the line to relieve and compete with Pearson (plus there is the island airport, but I wonder how much capacity it has). HSR is also helpful to fill in trips between two smaller cities that won't have direct air connections. Quebec City has pretty poor domestic connections.

For the rest of Ontario and Quebec feeder connections into the HSR corridor by bus or train matter a lot.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the payoff for people in Halifax who could have taken a 2 hour flight to be able to tack a second HSR leg to Toronto onto their grueling 20-hour VIA journey is extremely marginal.

Most people are still going to fly, but think it the HSR portion of rail trips matters more than it sounds because a lot of the Halifax to Quebec portion is overnight when people tend to sleep. Particularly since sleeper cars are common, whereas the corridor part is usually daytime. Would be especially useful if it's possible to transfer to HSR in QC rather than Montreal, although it might be tricky to arrange a river crossing.

And yes, good point about the bus connections. Would be nice if Maritime Bus went all the way to the HSR stop but as it stands it doesn't even cross the border at Campbelton. When i watched Miles in Transit make the trip they literally had to walk across the bridge to transfer from Orleans Express which is absurd imo.

[ssiguy]

I have an even better idea........ why not send it first to Barrie then Pete, then Kingston, then Ottawa, then Montreal, then Sherbrooke, then Drummondville, then TR, and finally Quebec but make sure that all the stations are at least 30km from their respective downtowns in areas not served by transit so they have to drive to get to their stations.

This is about as stupid an idea as it comes and why things never get built in this country.

[harls]

Real estate speculators in Peterborough hate this simple trick.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

I suspect this is a poison pill exercise. The southern route was already at a disadvantage for travel time compared to the north option. Adjusting it further south and adding a stop at Kingston will make the northern route appear that much more attractive.

Is Kingston really that much of a destination to warrant the cost of a station, additional travel time, and greater capital cost associated with greater total track length? It is a busy station on the Corridor system, but I suspect that is due, in part, to some passengers transferring from a Toronto-Montreal train to something that goes to Ottawa, rather than Kingston itself being the destination.

It depends what they are doing with the overall corridor. Trying to cut a greenfield train line between Peterborough and Ottawa was always geographically questionable (the Opeongo Hills are not a great place to build infrastructure that needs to be relatively straight). If they have revised their thinking on routing Kingston may not be that far away and the definition of “Kingston” may be flexible. Peterborough was only ever in the mix because it was once thought the 10 mph Victorian oatmeal train could be easily converted to a high frequency rail service at a low cost.

[Innsertnamehere]

If they do Kingston it's going to have to be a suburban station on the north end of town along the 401 or something, or at least I would hope so.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by harls

Real estate speculators in Peterborough hate this simple trick.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

This area in Germany here is a good example of a rail line paralleling the freeway.

And just west of this point the high-speed rail line transitions into a 9.2-kilometre dual bored tunnel when the line encounters built up areas and its alignment differs from the highway. The tunnel itself has been under construction for 12 years with nearly 2-billion Euro price tag and is part of the Stutgart 21 project that has been in motion for close to two decades and is highly controversial.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/5RCY5SAv9QMZqfHAA

I'm not saying that an HSR right of way can never parallel of highway, but it isn't a panacea and the example that was noted is less than ten kilometers in length.

[James Bond Agent 007]

The Stuttgart area is very hilly so nobody should be surprised they have to dig tunnels. If ALTO also goes through any hilly areas you should expect they'll have some tunnels there, too.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Most people are still going to fly, but think it the HSR portion of rail trips matters more than it sounds because a lot of the Halifax to Quebec portion is overnight when people tend to sleep. Particularly since sleeper cars are common, whereas the corridor part is usually daytime. Would be especially useful if it's possible to transfer to HSR in QC rather than Montreal, although it might be tricky to arrange a river crossing.

Seriously? You think people will pay $1000 to take an overnight train that then spends most of the next day getting them to Montreal to finish in Toronto 24 hours later rather than a flight?
What's with the Canadian obsession for every region to get a piece of pie?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Seriously? You think people will pay $1000 to take an overnight train that then spends most of the next day getting them to Montreal to finish in Toronto 24 hours later rather than a flight?
What's with the Canadian obsession for every region to get a piece of pie?

The train already exists and people already use it. So yes people will continue to use it after the experience improves. But as I said, not a large percentage. Nothing worth picking a silly argument over. And the whole point was that not every region needs a pie for something to be nationally beneficial. So i have no idea what you're complaining about.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The train already exists and people already use it. So yes people will continue to use it after the experience improves. But as I said, not a large percentage. Nothing worth picking a silly argument over. And the whole point was that not every region needs a pie for something to be nationally beneficial. So i have no idea what you're complaining about.

For those using it as a long distance service, the main users are tourists (in the cabins) or the cost conscious (in the seats). I am not sure either experience is enhanced by getting off the train and spending a lot of money to get to Montreal slightly earlier. If I was taking a night train from Vienna to Rome I wouldn't get off in Bologna to switch to a high speed train to get to Rome a little earlier.

[Taeolas]

Personally, I think we need heavy investment in Pax rail travel across the country.

HSR in the Corridor is literally decades past due, so I'd rather not put any more blocks in its way and just want to get SOMETHING put in so we can start building our experience and familiarity with the technology.

That said, PAX rail in general (not HSR, just normal 100-150kph rail) is very overdue in many more regions where it would make sense (Alberta, across the prairies, and in the Maritimes for example).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Personally, I think we need heavy investment in Pax rail travel across the country.

HSR in the Corridor is literally decades past due, so I'd rather not put any more blocks in its way and just want to get SOMETHING put in so we can start building our experience and familiarity with the technology.

That said, PAX rail in general (not HSR, just normal 100-150kph rail) is very overdue in many more regions where it would make sense (Alberta, across the prairies, and in the Maritimes for example).

A viable rail service is very constrained by geography and is squeezed between "it is easier/cheaper/faster to fly" and "it is easier/cheaper/faster to drive." Not many corridors fit in between (and still have a large enough population to put asses in seats for a frequent service), even with huge investments in building passenger-only routes.

[Taeolas]

Right, whihc is part of the reason I didn't really include BC as one of the areas that really needs PAX expansion (though it could probably stand its own system too; I'm just less familiar with it).

But there are areas of the country that could/should have systems that don't because we're stuck in this "Can't Do" mentality.

Even the "The population isn't there to support it" feels weak to me, since a lot of the rail networks that do exist started at much smaller population levels and grew from there. We need to be planting seeds where the growth seems to be there. (Note I am NOT proposing anything like a rail link between Yellowknife and Whitehorse; but for areas that are growing it should be done).

Alberta makes sense; hell it's got one of the only other HSR potential routes in the country too, and is way past due for a proper Pax rail network in general.

The Maritimes are in a similar situation. SJ to Halifax is about a growing 1.5M population area, and while it isn't flat, the topography isn't too bad for setting up (or expanding) the existing rail network.

Crosslinking across the prairies is a bit of a stretch due to distances, but it's also more topologically favourable to do at least.