High Speed Rail in Canada

[Innsertnamehere]

The only other corridor that even makes sense for regular passenger rail services is Calgary > Edmonton.. and the province there is planning that.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

Liberal government considering high-speed rail route change to include stop in Kingston

I think this is a mistake. The southern route encountered much stiffer NIMBY opposition, and will probably have higher land acquisition costs, since there are so many more individual landowners you have to deal with.

I'm not sure how it will actually reach Kingston without a spur, since the areas under consideration are more than 30 km north of Kingston proper, as the crow flies:



Having a remote station in the wilderness that takes 45 minutes to drive to for almost everyone seems foolish. You could build a spur south to the city itself, but that would be a huge added cost for a relatively small city. With this spur, you'd either kill the competitiveness of Toronto-Ottawa/Toronto-Montreal by making a diversion and then backing out, or you'd build it for trips that terminate in Kingston, either from the east or from the west, which is not a huge market.

The current VIA corridor isn't part of Alto's mandate, but Alto and VIA should have made assurances to people in Kingston that the current VIA services would be maintained and - given that services could terminate in Kingston from Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal - the shorter trips would increase reliability.

This announcement makes me believe that they can't make these assurances because they know that VIA is finished after Alto goes into service. I've said before that after the TO-OTT-MTL-QC is completed, VIA as a national rail service will be chopped into parts with some parts being spun off to regional operators, the transcontinental routes becoming private land cruises like the Rocky Mountaineer, and other services being abandoned entirely.

[Truenorth00]

Yep. This is so boneheaded. It kills the potential of the Kingston Hub which means Corridor East will be finished after Alto. All while driving up cost and opposition.

[FrAnKs]

Why heading to Kingston if it’s to avoid it anyway??? Je suis sceptique.

[James Bond Agent 007]

If they're gonna go to Kingston maybe they should just have it parallel the 401 freeway from Toronto, then at Johnstown have it jog northward and parallel route 416 to Ottawa. Looks like there's enough room in the 416 median to put the rail smack-dab right in the middle of the freeway. At least this way they'd have less opposition from landowners.

It would be a longer route that way, but it looks like it would have less opposition, maybe.

[SFUVancouver]

I suspect this is a poison pill exercise. The southern route was already at a disadvantage for travel time compared to the north option. Adjusting it further south and adding a stop at Kingston will make the northern route appear that much more attractive.

Is Kingston really that much of a destination to warrant the cost of a station, additional travel time, and greater capital cost associated with greater total track length? It is a busy station on the Corridor system, but I suspect that is due, in part, to some passengers transferring from a Toronto-Montreal train to something that goes to Ottawa, rather than Kingston itself being the destination.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

I suspect this is a poison pill exercise. The southern route was already at a disadvantage for travel time compared to the north option. Adjusting it further south and adding a stop at Kingston will make the northern route appear that much more attractive.

Is Kingston really that much of a destination to warrant the cost of a station, additional travel time, and greater capital cost associated with greater total track length? It is a busy station on the Corridor system, but I suspect that is due, in part, to some passengers transferring from a Toronto-Montreal train to something that goes to Ottawa, rather than Kingston itself being the destination.

Kingston is bigger than Peterborough, which is planned to get a station, so if they swapped Peterborough for Kingston it would actually make more sense.

[harls]

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

Kingston is bigger than Peterborough, which is planned to get a station, so if they swapped Peterborough for Kingston it would actually make more sense.

I thought high speed rail worked better when it's a nice straight line.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Fixed it for you........

Meanwhile passenger rail services elsewhere in the federation will be left to rot on the vine.......

Why build anything if 100% of people won't use it?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

Kingston is bigger than Peterborough, which is planned to get a station, so if they swapped Peterborough for Kingston it would actually make more sense.

They're not going to kill the station in Peterborough. Peterborough has been fighting to get passenger rail for decades; its municipal government and business leaders have been some of the biggest supporters of Alto and often make media appearances defending the project. Most importantly, Peterborough has been promised an Alto station, while Kingston has not. If you pulled the rug on Peterborough, you'd kill a lot of trust and support and make this project look like an act of political opportunism.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

Kingston is bigger than Peterborough, which is planned to get a station, so if they swapped Peterborough for Kingston it would actually make more sense.

You'd need a lot of data to look at the real trade-offs. I think there's a big difference between an extra stop that may be optional and rerouting significantly to reach a destination that will likely only generate a tiny percentage of trips.

If you look at busy HSR corridors around the world, they can be quite ruthless with stops. For example if you take the Nozomi train on the shinkansen you will speed through Shizuoka, a dense area with 700,000 people or so that is anchored by a busy rail hub. But you can take other slower trains that make more stops.

[casper]

Originally Posted by harls

I thought high speed rail worked better when it's a nice straight line.

There is also the option of having it parallel the highway and then have spur line (at lower speed) into Kingston. Some trains can be direct and bypass Kingston, others terminate/start in Kingston. It does not have to be a stop on every train if we have high frequency.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Originally Posted by harls

I thought high speed rail worked better when it's a nice straight line.

Undoubtedly, but it's probably not always possible.

TGV network in France seems to have some curves here and there, so no doubt it's possible.

[James Bond Agent 007]

This area in Germany here is a good example of a rail line paralleling the freeway.

[Nouvellecosse]

^ Pretty much any transportation route tends to work better with a more direct route due to travel times and cost. The only real exceptions are when curves help to avoid an obstacle that would cause bigger problems (like extra cost and construction time for bridges or tunnels) or to benefit from stuff like currents or jet stream with ships or planes. But when talking about HSR specifically, the type of "straight" that it needs isn't even discernible at those scales. A curve that's too sharp wouldn't even show on a map of France, while the curves that do show on the map may barely even seem like curves at ground level.

[harls]

Originally Posted by casper

There is also the option of having it parallel the highway and then have spur line (at lower speed) into Kingston. Some trains can be direct and bypass Kingston, others terminate/start in Kingston. It does not have to be a stop on every train if we have high frequency.

I'm thinking they want maximum return on investment, and spur lines will be an afterthought.

As much as I love Kingston, I think the big nodes should get it first.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Fixed it for you........

Meanwhile passenger rail services elsewhere in the federation will be left to rot on the vine.......

Oh no ! You dont benefit personally from something so it should not exist...

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Oh no ! You dont benefit personally from something so it should not exist...

This isn't what he said though. He was pointing out rightly that while this is sometimes presented as a national project, it's geographically regional infrastructure. This is a real double standard in Canadian politics and tends to be a blind spot for people in Ontario and Quebec.

[MolsonExport]

Building HSR in the corridor is akin to building subways under downtowns and inner city neighborhoods. The population density warrants it. You've got three of the largest six cities in Canada (including the largest and second largest), plus a bunch of other metropolitan areas at or above the 500K mark, along with a good number of 100K+ metros.





The only other completely within-Canada corridor that might merit consideration of HSR is Calgary-Edmonton.

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by someone123

This isn't what he said though. He was pointing out rightly that while this is sometimes presented as a national project, it's geographically regional infrastructure. This is a real double standard in Canadian politics and tends to be a blind spot for people in Ontario and Quebec.

It is a national project.

High Speed Rail in Ontario/Quebec sets a precedent and lays the foundation for other future HSR projects across the country. It will never happen anywhere else in the country until it happens there. The same logic sort of applies for Calgary-Edmonton since it is going to get developed/built independently, but that project will likely come after, and will subsequently be easier after Alto has blazed the trail. There will only be meaningful momentum on achieving the vision of a national HSR network if Alto happens successfully. Once the two main corridors are completed, it becomes a lot easier to talk about potential extensions of these systems to Vancouver, London/Windsor, and Halifax, and only after these extensions are completed can you even begin to think of linking east and west HSR networks together.

It’s the first step in a very long process that will benefit the whole country over the long-term.