Canadian cities that should have been bigger than they actually are?

[itom 987]

Churchill MB, Prince Albert SK, Dawson City YT, Happy Valley Goose Bay NFLD.

[Blitz]

I lived in Brandon for a bit and it was fine but the climate leaves something to be desired as does the vast nothingness for two hours in every direction.

If the Thames River was actually navigable that would have helped London's cause. Not sure if it played any role in slowing growth but London is also in the Lake Huron snowbelt.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by irisheyes

In the case of Saint John, New Brunswick: in the 1871 census it is Canada's fifth largest city. Portland, New Brunswick was Canada's ninth largest city.

Portland today is Saint John's north end— a neighbourhood so neglected you'd never know it was once a thriving city of its own.

As mentioned, confederation hurt the city badly.

Back then people weren't great at choosing names, were they? There is a Portland in Maine, also in Oregon, and there is the general SJ / SJ confusion. Portland Oregon was even named after Portland Maine. There is a Portland in NL too, but it's not significant.

As for which cities should have been larger; in NL, probably Grand Falls and Corner Brook, and maybe even Gander if airlines still needed to stop there.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by FactaNV

Winnipeg has a million people in the CMA, its not aome small backwater haha.

As of July 1 953,900 to be be precise.

Not a backwater, but when I say a major city, I mean one that's 1.5 million + or has the same visitor/tourist draw as the Big 3, or the tourist cities in Canada. Yes, Winnipeg has a lot to offer but I'd love to see it as one of the must-see cities in Canada and being a major city could only help. For most travellers (especially foreign) there's a big gap from Ontario to Calgary/the Rockies in part due to the time/cost of vehicle travel, so having Winnipeg as a major destination along the way can only help tourism across western Canada. Nevermind tourism, I would assume the folks of Winnipeg would also benefit from a larger, more vibrant city and downtown on top of the heritage and cultural attractions it already has.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

We really need to get a harbour ferry back in Saint John. People in Saint John have the most dismal attitudes about getting a ferry back, when Halifax operates five ferries and is expanding into an electric commuter ferry up the Bedford Basin.

Also for all the NIMBY heritage conservations that exist in Saint John today that don't want to see their views of the water blocked or impeded, they sure had no problem with giant grain elevators on the waterfront in the past.

Saint John is luck to have the huge stock of amazing old buildings that we have, but the city could be a lot more interesting with more quality mid rises and high rises across the Central Peninsula and other parts of the city.


Saint John tore down most of the buildings on Main Street seen in this picture above, and even more frustratingly, they demolished our beautiful 12 storey Art Deco hospital (seen in the background) up on Uptown's highest hill.

Here's what Main Street looks like in Saint John today:




Main Street was perhaps the greatest casualty of Saint John's so called, "urban renewal".

Mark Carney has talked a big talk about expanding ports, and he even visited Port Saint John during the campaign, but so far Trudeau has invested the most in expanding Port Saint John's operations. Still, none of the expansions under Trudeau, Harper, or any modern PM compare with the massive engineering projects that led to the creation of the West Side Docks in the first place. Here's a picture of them under construction back in the 1930s from the NB Museum:

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by someone123

Not sure where it is now but I remember an old article discussing Saint John city council's plans around 1900. At the time, they were debating building a "subway", which referred to an underground tunnel that would have carried Birney cars. I think they were imagining something like the Tremont Street Subway built in Boston in the late 1800's. Some speculated that the city would have 500,000 inhabitants in the 1900's.

I think both Halifax and Saint John might have gotten some streetcar tunnels had they grown a bit more around that 1880-1920 period when that sort of infrastructure was built. But who knows if it would have been maintainable or useful in the postwar era. Halifax did get the "rail cut" in the 1910's; a trench was blasted in rock in the South End so the rail line could operate at a lower level with the surface streets running over bridges.

There's no Northwest Arm bridge in Halifax, but I'm sure something nice would have been built if the city had been just a little bigger around 1910-1960. Later in the postwar era there was a lot more opposition to projects like these. The rail cut would never have been built if it hadn't gotten done by the 1910's or so. I feel like that's a level of ambition and foresight in public works you don't see much today.

I'd love to find that article. It wasn't this one? I saw you posted that one before, and it make an outlandish claim that Saint John would be the second largest city in North America after New York.

I still think there's a case for a Harbour tunnel, even if just for pedestrians, but I think the Port could maybe even get a lot of use out of a rail tunnel to connect the West Side Docks with the Lower Cove Terminal across the harbour.

Brunel built a tunnel under the Thames that is still there today, and tunnelling technology has come a long, long way since then.

Of course, Saint John will never get a subway system, but a single pedestrian tunnel or even a 1km tunnel for vehicles + pedestrians + cyclists could be a game-changer for urbanizing the West Side peninsula. The West Side used to be well connected with Uptown for pedestrians with the ferry, but since the ferry stopped operating late 1950's, it takes over 90 minutes to walk between the two peninsulas less than 500 meters apart at their closest points.

Naysayers say the population no longer exists for a harbour ferry system in Saint John, yet the Saint John Region has 6 pedestrian ferries in operation today, when you include the Digby Ferry. I can't take a ferry to the peninsula barely 1km away from my house, but I can take a ferry to Nova Scotia.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by harls

I remember going to see Titanic at the Strand in 1997 in Brandon. That street was gorgeous.



https://www.brandonsun.com/local/2016/12/12/brandon-university-buys-strand-theatre

Now it looks like this:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/kbWWoPHz35TGHzM98

Brandon was Brantfordized.


Before: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Downto..._ep=EgoyMDI1MTAxNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

After: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Downto..._ep=EgoyMDI1MTAxNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[MolsonExport]

Would the Maritimes have been better off in the USA?

Perhaps, but perhaps not. I mean, Maine isn't exactly jammed with people, despite covering a greater land area than either Nova Scotia or New Brunswick.

Halifax and Saint John had served as the Eastern Ports for Canada for centuries, even after the St. Lawrence Seaway was built. What need would these places have served in an American context given the existence of Portland and Boston?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Would the Maritimes have been better off in the USA?

Perhaps, but perhaps not. I mean, Maine isn't exactly jammed with people, despite covering a greater land area than either Nova Scotia or New Brunswick.

Halifax and Saint John had served as the Eastern Ports for Canada for centuries, even after the St. Lawrence Seaway was built. What need would these places have served in an American context given the existence of Portland and Boston?

Agreed. Halifax and Saint John were bypassed in the Canadian context by Montreal and Great Lakes ports after the seaway was built. I think in an American context, they would have been bypassed by Boston, NYC and Baltimore. We would have lost out regardless of who our overlords were.

As for Maine, the southern part of the state up to about Portland does well, but, this area lies within the orbit of greater Boston. I think the Maritimes would continue to suffer the fate of northern Maine, far from population centres and geographically isolated.

Early on, the Maritimes were purposely ignored by John A. MacDonald's National Policy which sought to develop an independent Canadian economy in central Canada, and sought to develop a Canadian hinterland in the west. The Maritimes did not factor into this equation. We were geographically irrelevant. Now though, I think the Maritimes would be more prosperous (at least better economically supported) in a Canadian context rather than in the free-for-all brou-ha-ha of the Excited States.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Agreed. Halifax and Saint John were bypassed in the Canadian context by Montreal and Great Lakes ports after the seaway was built. I think in an American context, they would have been bypassed by Boston, NYC and Baltimore. We would have lost out regardless of who our overlords were.

As for Maine, the southern part of the state up to about Portland does well, but, this area lies within the orbit of greater Boston. I think the Maritimes would continue to suffer the fate of northern Maine, far from population centres and geographically isolated.

It's also possible that since the Maritimes had some decently sized population centres at confederation, a new northern centre of gravity would have been established, and both New England as we know it now, and the NB/BS/PEI extension of it, would have done well. But the vast middle of Maine and western NB, with few towns and no large towns, would not have grown much.

[irisheyes]

It is also worth noting that had Saint John remained the capital of New Brunswick it would have been able to weather the harmful policies surrounding Confederation much better.

Think of it this way: If you take Saint John and Fredericton and put them together what do you get? Basically another Halifax.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by irisheyes

It is also worth noting that had Saint John remained the capital of New Brunswick it would have been able to weather the harmful policies surrounding Confederation much better.

Think of it this way: If you take Saint John and Fredericton and put them together what do you get? Basically another Halifax.

If you take Freddy, Saint John, and Moncton together you still don't get a Halifax in 2025 population anyway

[LuluBobo]

It's been weird to me that Southern Ontario only has one million+ person metro despite being like what, 12 million?

Windsor and Niagara kinda count, but the border isn't exactly porous. But London, KWC, and Hamilton stick out.

I think the region as a whole would have benefitted from being less Toronto-centric.

[Ozy_Flame]

If you look at the history of building height limits impacting city growth, Edmonton has a story of potential growth. It could have been both the Alberta captial AND the oil capital of Canada (especially as Leduc was the first real big oil discovery in 1947), but the Downtown Airport and its proximity to downtown really impacted the private sector's ability to grow and build office towers. in the 60's onwards. Calgary also was a regional rail hub (crazy to think given looking at it today) and oil companies were already setting up shop there due to a discovery in Turner Valley before Leduc. The horse had already begun to leave the barn.

The airport and its surrounding restrictions also arguably contributed to why Edmonton, like Calgary, has a sprawl problem.

So based on timing of a developing oil economy and the Airport development, I'd say Edmonton could have been bigger and more important as an industry giant than it is today.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Wigs

If you take Freddy, Saint John, and Moncton together you still don't get a Halifax in 2025 population anyway

Yeah, hate to be THAT guy, but Freddy and Saint John's 2024 CMA estimates combined come to slightly less than half of Haifax's. They'd be more like another St. John's or Regina.

The Edmonton and Montreal discussions are interesting: big cities that could have been even bigger. Not sure about Edmonton, given Calgary's relatively less isolated location? But definitely, there's a world in which Montreal never gave up the number-one title and is an 8 million metro today.

[irisheyes]

I mean it is a bit of apples and oranges to compare specifics today. Halifax is more than 5,000 square kilometres.

I don't think it is too much of a stretch to assume a capital city of Saint John wouldn't have had the same economy of scales and gravity to snowball into a comparable city to Halifax.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by irisheyes

I mean it is a bit of apples and oranges to compare specifics today. Halifax is more than 5,000 square kilometres.

I don't think it is too much of a stretch to assume a capital city of Saint John wouldn't have had the same economy of scales and gravity to snowball into a comparable city to Halifax.

True that Saint John could easily have grown to Halifax's size in an alternate universe. It's not like we're comparing it to a Montreal or something. But Halifax's metro population size has basically nothing to do with the regional municipality's land area since most of it is just empty wilderness. It isn't like there are towns and cities of significant size that wouldn't have been included that now are.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Halifax and Saint John had served as the Eastern Ports for Canada for centuries, even after the St. Lawrence Seaway was built. What need would these places have served in an American context given the existence of Portland and Boston?

Prior to the railways the Maritimes had little economic contact with Canada, and even up to around 1900, Portland ME was the Grand Trunk Railway's winter port and handled a lot of Canadian shipping while Montreal was inaccessible.

I think basically the Maritimes are just a separate region and it's hard to image them being closely economically integrated with either the Northeast/Midwest system (Erie Canal) or St. Lawrence back in the era of heavy industry and manufacturing. But that doesn't mean they couldn't have developed more than they did.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by irisheyes

I mean it is a bit of apples and oranges to compare specifics today. Halifax is more than 5,000 square kilometres.

Fredericton CMA is actually 6,000 square km and lower density than rural Kings County NS. Saint John CMA is a bit smaller but still 3,500 square kilometers.

Most people in NS live in the central part in an area within an hour so drive of Halifax and the Truro and Kentville census agglomerations are nearby (Bridgewater-Lunenburg being just slightly too small for a CA). That region is the apples-to-apples comparison to different cities in southern NB.

[MolsonExport]

Edmonton and Calgary are pretty damned big and growing faster than most other Canadian cities.