[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

I wonder how much Airbnb's and other alternatives are impacting these hotel stay statistics? Along with post covid shifts to prioritize remote meetings and reduce travel. Though, I think levels of business travel have finally rebounded to pre-pandemic levels?

I wonder what the 2025 stats will say about the hotel situation in Saint John... I'd hope we saw a boost in tourism numbers and hotel stays as Canadians across the country are embracing vacations within Canada over trips to the US.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I wonder how much Airbnb's and other alternatives are impacting these hotel stay statistics? Along with post covid shifts to prioritize remote meetings and reduce travel. Though, I think levels of business travel have finally rebounded to pre-pandemic levels?

I wonder what the 2025 stats will say about the hotel situation in Saint John... I'd hope we saw a boost in tourism numbers and hotel stays as Canadians across the country are embracing vacations within Canada over trips to the US.

I wonder how much the rise of cruising has impacted hotel demand in Saint John as well? How many of those US passengers are the people who 30 years ago would be on a driving holiday or a bus tour of the Maritimes?

[JakeNB]

Saint John has essentially forfeited the conference/convention business due to the lack of flights to and from the City. That is a key driver in hotel occupancy rates. I have been involved with planning events and air access is one of the key factors in determining where events will be held. Over the past couple of weeks, I have driven family members to Fredericton and Moncton to catch flights due to the lack of convenient options from SJ.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

Saint John has essentially forfeited the conference/convention business due to the lack of flights to and from the City. That is a key driver in hotel occupancy rates. I have been involved with planning events and air access is one of the key factors in determining where events will be held. Over the past couple of weeks, I have driven family members to Fredericton and Moncton to catch flights due to the lack of convenient options from SJ.

Sounds like we need leaders who tenaciously fight for YSJ to be better funded, or support even bolder ideas, like a new, Fredericton-Saint John combined airport.

Having a better funded bus service between the three main cities could go a long way too. Flying into Fredericton for a conference in Saint John wouldn't be that bad if there was a shuttle bus service to Saint John that cost around the same price as a cab from the Saint John Airport to Uptown currently costs. Maybe it could even cost less than that...

It wouldn't exactly be difficult or overly costly to fund such an airport shuttle system between the main three cities.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I wonder how much the rise of cruising has impacted hotel demand in Saint John as well? How many of those US passengers are the people who 30 years ago would be on a driving holiday or a bus tour of the Maritimes?

I'd imagine very few of those cruise passengers are from the same demographic that might take a bus from Portland, Boston, New York or other cities in the US Northeast to Saint John... if such a bus service actually existed.

It seems Saint John is only worried about American tourists getting here on cruise ships and in their personal vehicles. Would be great to see a flight to Boston again, once this tiff with the Americans simmer down, but a bus service is probably a more sustainable service to invest in. I've always thought service between TD Station and TD Garden in a big green bus sponsored by TD bank could be a smash hit, going both ways!

Uptown Saint John would be a great weekend getaway for many Americans in the Northeast, especially the brutally hot and humid cities like Boston and New York. They're the demographic who we can really market the fog and cooler summer weather to as a good thing. Montreal is also brutally hot and humid...but it seems most of Tourism NB's marketing towards Quebec is based around them visiting L'Acadie! ⭐️🇫🇷 ... and not Saint-Jean, Nouveau Brunswick. 😓

[bingun]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I think the top two floors of the Brunswick Square office tower would be an amazing location for a new, Uptown Library. As far as I know, the entire top floor penthouse remains vacant, and I'm sure whoever is on the floor below could be convinced to move down a few floors.

My favourite place to study in university was the 6th floor reading room of the Library, and it was a real shame they got rid of it the year before I graduated and it was turned it into a computer lab.

I Can't think of a better place to read an old book about Saint John, old Saint John Newspaper John, than 18-19 storeys up at the top of Brunswick Square... I think it would possibly be even more tranquil than my former favourite reading spot back on campus, and an amazing place public place for the people of Saint John to read a book while enjoying the best view in the whole city.

While I am not putting my support behind the idea quite yet, I thought you'd like to see the occupancy of Brunswick Square (or anyone else who is interested).

It is quite the ghost town. Even for the floors with occupancy, many are only partially used.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

While I am not putting my support behind the idea quite yet, I thought you'd like to see the occupancy of Brunswick Square (or anyone else who is interested).

It is quite the ghost town. Even for the floors with occupancy, many are only partially used.

That's pretty pathetic for what is still the co-tallest building in New Brunswick. I wonder if any Irving offices will be moving into some of these floors if they are selling the Golden Ball. Such a waste of a good space.

The library idea would only make sense if there was a new vision for Market Square that required the Library to move... but a restaurant/ bar could be a profitable venture for that top floor penthouse.

Still think the best overall solution for this building would be for the province to purchase the office tower portion, then contract a private construction company to build the tower up to its designed 36 storey potential.

... then turn like 70% or more of the high rise into affordable apartments.

The building could then eventually be sold once NB is no longer considered to be in a housing crisis.

It would sure give David Hickey a better photo op, and in his own riding to boot, than most of the tiny little projects he's been taking photos in front of.

The demand for housing will see those units get gobbled up quickly, and clearly, the demand for office space just isn't there.

Also, hundreds of affordable apartment units at Brunswick Square would breath new life into the mall below.


I can't imagine the current ownership will want to keep the building much longer if the vacancy rate remains this high.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

That's pretty pathetic for what is still the co-tallest building in New Brunswick. I wonder if any Irving offices will be moving into some of these floors if they are selling the Golden Ball. Such a waste of a good space.

The library idea would only make sense if there was a new vision for Market Square that required the Library to move... but a restaurant/ bar could be a profitable venture for that top floor penthouse.

Still think the best overall solution for this building would be for the province to purchase the office tower portion, then contract a private construction company to build the tower up to its designed 36 storey potential.

... then turn like 70% or more of the high rise into affordable apartments.

The building could then eventually be sold once NB is no longer considered to be in a housing crisis.

It would sure give David Hickey a better photo op, and in his own riding to boot, than most of the tiny little projects he's been taking photos in front of.

The demand for housing will see those units get gobbled up quickly, and clearly, the demand for office space just isn't there.

Also, hundreds of affordable apartment units at Brunswick Square would breath new life into the mall below.


I can't imagine the current ownership will want to keep the building much longer if the vacancy rate remains this high.

They offered it for sale through much of 2024 and then pulled it from the market after being unsuccessful. Instead they embarked on a reorganization in an attempt to reenergize leasing efforts.

The owners, Ravelin REIT (formerly Slade REIT) are still losing money (about a 21mm loss in the first 2 quarters of 2025) and their units are trading around 40 cents so who knows what will happen.

They are still in default on loan provisions but I can only assume creditors have no interest in acting on their security and taking buildings in the present economic environment

[KnoxfordGuy]

That masts have gone up on the Marco Polo replica. SJ Energy installed them. Good to see it moving along.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by KnoxfordGuy

That masts have gone up on the Marco Polo replica. SJ Energy installed them. Good to see it moving along.

Nice!

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

If they're hurting that bad, the provincial government or federal government could probably get the building for a steal. I think it could be considered a near stranded asset at this point. The current office tenants of this 19 storey building could probably comfortably occupy no more than 5 or 6 floors. However, if the government purchased the building, built it up to its 36 storey designed potential, and kept even 10 storeys reserved for commercial/retail use, that could mean 26 storeys of residential with around 150 units or more.

If the government bought it, I'm sure they'd have no problem filling up ten floors of offices. Actually, what would be really ideal is if the province and feds could work out a deal to move the entirety of their government offices within 1 Agar Place into offices at Brunswick Square, then tear that monstrosity down on top of hospital hill, and come up with a plan (and possibly work with private partners) to get a mixed use high rise development built in its place... but i'll try and keep the focus on Brunswick Square here.

Brunswick Square Office Tower | Property Tax Assessment



Like, what buyer in their right mind would buy Brunswick Square Office Tower in its current state and occupancy rate for anywhere near the $57 million it was sold for in 2015? There's clearly not enough office space clients in Saint John at the moment to fill this place up, and it's not like there's any huge companies moving to SJ to fill up the building. I doubt the REIT is even making enough in rent to cover their artificially low property tax bill each year.

Also, gotta love how large the discrepancy is between the last sale price $57 million (when Uptown property values were much lower than they are today) and the current assessed value of $17 million. I don't think the REIT should get off easy with such a low assessment on the building, just because they 🞵🞵🞵🞵 at running an office tower, and the SNB tax assessment system is critically flawed. It's the co-tallest building in New Brunswick in the heart of Uptown Saint John, but it remains of the most dismal places in all of Uptown.

It was built way before my time here, but I assume the Brunswick Square office tower did have some government funding when it was originally built, as I think it hosted the offices for the NB Tel Crown Corp?

Again, I'm no economist, but I don't think it's too far off to consider the Brunswick Square Office tower a stranded asset at this point. I see government as a more suitable buyer for the property than a private developer, especially since there would be potential for residential conversion, and even upwards expansion. Private developers would probably not be willing to take on the risk and upfront cost of such a project in a smaller city like Saint John, but the provincial government is well suited to take on the challenge and risk. The Province of NB have something to prove on the housing front, while private developers don't have anything to prove, just profits to be made.

Expanding it to 30+ storeys might be a bit pie in the sky (literally) but it's the type of pie in the sky idea that could actually work, and the building was engineered to support 36 storeys. I don't think any of us want to see Uptown's signature tower floundering for another decade, but without an ambitious plan, how will it not?

[gtsoc]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I wonder if any Irving offices will be moving into some of these floors if they are selling the Golden Ball. Such a waste of a good space.

Elevator doesn't work in the Golden ball so doubt there is anyone in there.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by KnoxfordGuy

That masts have gone up on the Marco Polo replica. SJ Energy installed them. Good to see it moving along.

Some pics from Barry on Facebook.



















Looks like they got some period authentic hydro poles for the polo!

It's certainly coming along together nicely... finally.

I hope people will actually be allowed to go up onboard it once it's finished.

[sailor734]

Envision SJ wrote "It was built way before my time here, but I assume the Brunswick Square office tower did have some government funding when it was originally built, as I think it hosted the offices for the NB Tel Crown Corp?"

NBTel was never a Crown Corp. It was a publicly traded company with a majority stake held by Bell Canada.

AFAIK the NB Government never had a financial or ownership interest in this development. It was funded and originally owned jointly by NBTel, BNS, Trizec and MRA Holdings

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Envision SJ wrote "It was built way before my time here, but I assume the Brunswick Square office tower did have some government funding when it was originally built, as I think it hosted the offices for the NB Tel Crown Corp?"

NBTel was never a Crown Corp. It was a publicly traded company with a majority stake held by Bell Canada.

AFAIK the NB Government never had a financial or ownership interest in this development. It was funded and originally owned jointly by NBTel, BNS, Trizec and MRA Holdings

Right, I assumed NBTel was like SaskTel or MTS... but I guess never assume. 😅

It sounds like the Brunswick Square Office Tower never really fully recovered from the loss of NBTel.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Some pics from Barry on Facebook.



















Looks like they got some period authentic hydro poles for the polo!

It's certainly coming along together nicely... finally.

I hope people will actually be allowed to go up onboard it once it's finished.

That was wayyy more gimmicky than I expected.
Either have a full sized replica that sites in the harbour or at least right close to it, so people can explore the ship, the size etc. That'd be a great little attraction.

Instead this half pint sized ship with telephone masts? It's like they wanted to do a mural/statue but thought it was cheaper than building a rock/marble statue.

The small scale replica by the library is way more useful as of "what it used to look like" then this thing.

[sailor734]

You have to give the proponents A+ for effort and sheer "stick-to-it ness" for doing this on a wing and a prayer with no major government or corporate support.

Unfortunately, the finished product shows all the financial compromises and that's a shame.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by sailor734

You have to give the proponents A+ for effort and sheer "stick-to-it ness" for doing this on a wing and a prayer with no major government or corporate support.

Unfortunately, the finished product shows all the financial compromises and that's a shame.

Yeah it's definitely something lol I just don't quite see what it's trying to achieve.

It's not a full sized replica (so you can't walk around the deck, into the state rooms, below deck etc). You don't get to feel like it would have been sailing on the Marco Polo.

It's not accurate, so it just looks like a Temu version of a ship that doesn't even really resemble the Marco Polo other than the colour.

If people are going to be able to walk around the ship, then it'll take all of 10 seconds?

Super odd.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Yeah it's definitely something lol I just don't quite see what it's trying to achieve.

It's not a full sized replica (so you can't walk around the deck, into the state rooms, below deck etc). You don't get to feel like it would have been sailing on the Marco Polo.

It's not accurate, so it just looks like a Temu version of a ship that doesn't even really resemble the Marco Polo other than the colour.

If people are going to be able to walk around the ship, then it'll take all of 10 seconds?

Super odd.

I don't think we need to talk it down too much. At the end of the day, Barry has tried his best here with the funds available. A full-size functioning replica would be amazing, but it would also be a very costly endeavour. I hope they open it up somewhat, as I think kids would enjoy it.

To me, it's just a minor attraction or stop on Harbour Passage for tourists heading up to Reversing Falls or the NB Museum. Perhaps some of the walking tours can stop by and provide a more detailed explanation.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by bingun

I don't think we need to talk it down too much. At the end of the day, Barry has tried his best here with the funds available. A full-size functioning replica would be amazing, but it would also be a very costly endeavour. I hope they open it up somewhat, as I think kids would enjoy it.

To me, it's just a minor attraction or stop on Harbour Passage for tourists heading up to Reversing Falls or the NB Museum. Perhaps some of the walking tours can stop by and provide a more detailed explanation.

I agree. At the end of the day I'll just say it is unfortunate that this project never got the support and funding from government/major corporations etc I think it deserved and leave it at that.

After all, remember what Thumper's mom taught him.