[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[bingun]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

An interesting Committee Of The Whole item from last night's council meeting.

Fundy Quay developers in talks to take over Market Square

https://tj.news/saint-john-south/fundy-q...take-over-market-square?itm_source=index

An Elias Management Group subsidiary company is working with Hardman Group Limited to “take over the operations of Market Square,” according to Fundy Harbour Group vice-president of development, Chris Elias.
Council voted last week to consent to reassigning its lease for part of the waterfront mall to the subsidiary.

“The granting of the City’s consent is one critical step in the multi-step process of executing this transaction,” Elias said in a statement. “As we continue to work towards closing with the Hardman Group Limited, public comments will be kept at a minimum until this transaction has closed.”

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

Fundy Quay developers in talks to take over Market Square

https://tj.news/saint-john-south/fundy-q...take-over-market-square?itm_source=index

Certainly sounds like a good move. I believe Pugsley, our resident urban planner, listed fixing Market Square as one of the top two priorities for improving Uptown Saint John.

Hopefully they or some other competent developers can take over Brunswick Square next.

Market Square has lots of squandered potential, especially with the loss of the Lycee French school to Halifax, but it's nowhere near as dismal as Brunswick Square.

I wonder what their plan would be for the former Museum Space. 🤔

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Certainly sounds like a good move. I believe Pugsley, our resident urban planner, listed fixing Market Square as one of the top two priorities for improving Uptown Saint John.

Haha, well, yes - I think it should be a priority.

That said, my vision for it would likely enrage everyone. But here we go... again...

I think it has immense potential for a casino resort, with the library being moved into a new facility - perhaps the new cultural space that is part of the Fundy Quay development.

The back office space in Market Square, plus the former museum space and library, could be redeveloped with a new hotel tower, additional conference space, and a casino. Something like an "MGM Grand" branded property. This would be transformational and make Saint John a major conference destination. Not to mention creating a four-season entertainment hub on the waterfront - drawing visitors year-round. With the Hilton, and a new 400 room tower, you'd have a seriously competitive entertainment/convention venue comparable to Casino Nova Scotia/Marriott, MGM National Harbour outside DC, or even the new Pickering facility outside Toronto. Not to mention an indoor marketplace with existing bars, restaurants, and shops.

But again, not a popular proposal on here. LOL

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Haha, well, yes - I think it should be a priority.

That said, my vision for it would likely enrage everyone. But here we go... again...

I think it has immense potential for a casino resort, with the library being moved into a new facility - perhaps the new cultural space that is part of the Fundy Quay development.

The back office space in Market Square, plus the former museum space and library, could be redeveloped with a new hotel tower, additional conference space, and a casino. Something like an "MGM Grand" branded property. This would be transformational and make Saint John a major conference destination. Not to mention creating a four-season entertainment hub on the waterfront - drawing visitors year-round. With the Hilton, and a new 400 room tower, you'd have a seriously competitive entertainment/convention venue comparable to Casino Nova Scotia/Marriott, MGM National Harbour outside DC, or even the new Pickering facility outside Toronto. Not to mention an indoor marketplace with existing bars, restaurants, and shops.

But again, not a popular proposal on here. LOL

I think that would be a great idea. I still find it mind blowing that if you go back far enough in the main Saint John thread, there's actually a proposal from the current President of the United States to build a Casino in Saint John. 🤯


What is exactly the opposition to a Casino anyways? Like, I'm not a huge gambler or anything. I've won at black jack a few times in Vegas, but I don't exactly worry about myself falling victim to — addiction if Saint John got a casino. lol It might not be a popular proposal on here, but perhaps the Elias' and the Fundy Harbour Group could actually make it happen, especially if Fundy Quay is considered a success. They could attract outside investors to invest in the project here in Saint John.

I think it's a great idea, especially if it was an MGM property in the city Louis B. Mayer grew up in. The idea of turning it into a tower would be quite good, especially if it was of substantial height. If they could build a supertall on top of a former piano square in New York, even a 20 storey built on top of Market Square would look amazing. It could be the type of resort destination that could would attract similar tourists to stay in Saint John for more than the single night that the cruise ships come here, including American tourists if we could get a direct flight to Boston or New York. I think we all know things won't be frosty with the Americans forever.

I think maybe the Library should go back to Saint John's only Carnegie building, and the Saint John Arts Centre should find a new, bigger location... as I think it's kind of offensive that we have a Carnegie building that was built as a library for the people of Saint John, that is no longer a library, but rather a multidisciplinary venue. I guess it's because it got too small, but still, it's one of the most beautiful buildings in Saint John, and I think it's a shame it isn't still a library. I guess that won't happen tho.

I think the top two floors of the Brunswick Square office tower would be an amazing location for a new, Uptown Library. As far as I know, the entire top floor penthouse remains vacant, and I'm sure whoever is on the floor below could be convinced to move down a few floors.

My favourite place to study in university was the 6th floor reading room of the Library, and it was a real shame they got rid of it the year before I graduated and it was turned it into a computer lab.

I Can't think of a better place to read an old book about Saint John, old Saint John Newspaper John, than 18-19 storeys up at the top of Brunswick Square... I think it would possibly be even more tranquil than my former favourite reading spot back on campus, and an amazing place public place for the people of Saint John to read a book while enjoying the best view in the whole city.

[Taeolas]

I am a gambler (in fact I'm heading down to Moncton tonight for an evening at the Casino with mom; burning up one of the last free rooms they offered us), and I wouldn't be against a Casino in Saint John.

But I also recognize it would probably get a lot of opposition and wouldn't happen.

If it were to happen, it would likely fall under the Great Canadian Gaming group's umbrella; they already control both NS Casinos and Moncton's casino.

With the Cruise ship traffic, I could see SJ's casino doing okay. It should be on par with Moncton's I think (and better than Sydney's). Sure Cruise ships have their own on board Cruise ships, but gamblers do like some some variety so it would get traffic.

If SJ was to go for a Casino, it might be good for the City to push for it sooner rather than later. I'm not sure what First Nations are in the area, but now that St Mary's in Freddy has flipped the Bingo Hall to an (electronic) casino, and with Grey Rock up in Edmundston, I'm sure the other first nation communities are eyeing the Casino lure more and more. Maybe the city could make a sharing deal with the local First Nations to discourage them from starting their own casinos elsewhere in the area. (Since the Harbourfront would be the ideal location for a SJ Casino)

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I think it's a great idea, especially if it was an MGM property in the city Louis B. Mayer grew up in.

I'm glad you picked up on that - it was why I thought MGM would be an ideal brand actually. Imagine the interior space facing the fountain and courtyard (currently the old museum facade) being one giant wall of digital screens with a small entrance opening. The digital screens would show a massive video close up waves crashing in and receding - coming up from the floor all the way up to the top of the ceiling and back. Transitioning to other iconic scenes of the mighty Bay of Fundy. It would be dramatic and an attraction on its own!

A bronze memorial statue to Louis B. Mayer could be in front as well - paying homage to him and the great things he created as a native Saint Johner.

[MonctonRad]

Thought you guys might appreciate this.

Infinity Aerials (based out of Moncton) just took this drone shot over the uptown peninsula, with a couple of cruise ships in the foreground and the new tower crane for Percy's King Street project in the background.

[bingun]

I think it's unfair to group Market Square and Brunswick Square together for some of these discussions, as Market Square is in far better shape. It still has a nice internal and external appearance and is mostly occupied by many long-term tenants. I hope that FHG have some positive plans, especially concerning the old museum space after the disappointment of the international school situation.

As for a casino, it is an interesting idea, and I think having a casino in Saint John, preferably on the waterfront, should be considered in the long term. Whether retrofitting Market Square to accommodate it is the best location, I am unsure; maybe it could be part of a future redevelopment of the Lantic Sugar site, along with residential and commercial buildings.

That being said, it would likely face significant opposition, and I don't think that is unfounded. Bringing in tourists and folks from out of town for events and some minor — and entertainment is one thing, but putting a major casino in the core of the city, within walking distance of some of the poorest and most exploitable neighbourhoods, shouldn't be ignored. We have plenty of residents with addictions as it is; adding more is a scary thought.

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by bingun

I think it's unfair to group Market Square and Brunswick Square together for some of these discussions, as Market Square is in far better shape. It still has a nice internal and external appearance and is mostly occupied by many long-term tenants. I hope that FHG have some positive plans, especially concerning the old museum space after the disappointment of the international school situation.

As for a casino, it is an interesting idea, and I think having a casino in Saint John, preferably on the waterfront, should be considered in the long term. Whether retrofitting Market Square to accommodate it is the best location, I am unsure; maybe it could be part of a future redevelopment of the Lantic Sugar site, along with residential and commercial buildings.

That being said, it would likely face significant opposition, and I don't think that is unfounded. Bringing in tourists and folks from out of town for events and some minor — and entertainment is one thing, but putting a major casino in the core of the city, within walking distance of some of the poorest and most exploitable neighbourhoods, shouldn't be ignored. We have plenty of residents with addictions as it is; adding more is a scary thought.

The other side is that it would create many jobs that they could fill. And I think the best way out of poverty is employment and income.

I also think that if someone has a predisposition to addiction, that you can't prevent activating that — addiction by not building a casino at a time when you can access gaming and betting sites through your phone 7/24. I don't hit the bars any longer, but aren't there still VLT's around?

[bingun]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

The other side is that it would create many jobs that they could fill. And I think the best way out of poverty is employment and income.

I also think that if someone has a predisposition to addiction, that you can't prevent activating that — addiction by not building a casino at a time when you can access gaming and betting sites through your phone 7/24. I don't hit the bars any longer, but aren't there still VLT's around?

I agree that a casino with supporting businesses, such as hotels, restaurants, and other entertainment, is probably the most economically beneficial — proposition, and this is why I wouldn't be totally opposed to it.

That being said, it will still tempt some that may not have been previously exposed or worsen others that have. There is a certain appeal to live games like blackjack that online casinos can't replicate.

At least it is not as bad as online sports —, which is a scourge—looting money from the country and sending it offshore to benefit nobody.

[jonny golden]

At least it is not as bad as online sports —, which is a scourge—looting money from the country and sending it offshore to benefit nobody.

And they always say: "please play responsibly".

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Thought you guys might appreciate this.

Infinity Aerials (based out of Moncton) just took this drone shot over the uptown peninsula, with a couple of cruise ships in the foreground and the new tower crane for Percy's King Street project in the background.

Nice pic!

[DyAm00394]

AllNewBrunswick is reporting that Irving is selling the Golden Ball Building.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

AllNewBrunswick is reporting that Irving is selling the Golden Ball Building.

As in putting up for sale, or already sold?

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

AllNewBrunswick is reporting that Irving is selling the Golden Ball Building.

Quite a change in their traditional business philosophy if true.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

AllNewBrunswick is reporting that Irving is selling the Golden Ball Building.

I'd love to see it restored and perhaps turned into high-end condos or apartments, but I fear the costs involved and the proximity to Waterloo may be challenges that can't be overcome.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by bingun

I'd love to see it restored and perhaps turned into high-end condos or apartments, but I fear the costs involved and the proximity to Waterloo may be challenges that can't be overcome.

Remember most of waterloo is all a red zone and I think the best way to reclaim that area of town is by implementing higher end condos with a completely different clientele.

I have a friend that's from Newark and they said a lot of their bad/sketchy areas have been turned into fancier high end condos and the whole neighbourhood has changed.

[adamuptownsj]

They're also selling 28, 32-34, 36, and 38 Sydney as a lot. These could be real gems with the right developer. Great location with the new theatre and IOL HQ next door. Must be ~20 units and a commercial space.

Golden Ball would make a really cool boutique hotel with only minor exterior changes. 'Pull' the main floor out to the street and scrap the brick planters, reconfigure a proper main entrance off Union. Adequate parking already exists. Total pipe dream of course.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

They're also selling 28, 32-34, 36, and 38 Sydney as a lot. These could be real gems with the right developer. Great location with the new theatre and IOL HQ next door. Must be ~20 units and a commercial space.

Golden Ball would make a really cool boutique hotel with only minor exterior changes. 'Pull' the main floor out to the street and scrap the brick planters, reconfigure a proper main entrance off Union. Adequate parking already exists. Total pipe dream of course.

A hotel is a fantastic idea, and it would be an excellent spot for it with such proximity to both Irving's and the general uptown core. The character of the building and overlooking the burial ground, would be unique.

I wonder what the current hotel demand looks like in Saint John. I recall that Envision SJ used to maintain some statistics, but I couldn't easily find the source. With the hotel plans abandoned at Fundy Quay, that could suggest the demand isn't there.

Edit - this is from the latest dashboard.

[sailor734]

At first glance, hardly a compelling case for major hotel investment in Saint John.