Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Russians did not move into Luhansk and Donetsk. It is Ukrainians who became Russified over time.

I think it's a mix. In eastern Ukraine a large share of the population are in fact ethnic Russians, and they form a majority in some places. This is also true of Crimea.

As a result of the presence of many ethnic Russians and also the favouring of Russian (over Ukrainian) by the USSR for many decades, a lot of ethnic Ukrainians have also become native Russian speakers.

Some of these ethnic Ukrainian speakers occasionally speak very little Ukrainian.

Even in Kyiv which is not in the east of the country about half of the population are native Russian speakers, though almost all are ethnic Ukrainians.

Native language is not necessarily an indicator of political position or opinions of the war.

Many (maybe most) ethnic Ukrainian russophones support Ukraine and are against Putin.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think it's a mix. In eastern Ukraine a large share of the population are in fact ethnic Russians, and they form a majority in some places. This is also true of Crimea.

As a result of the presence of many ethnic Russians and also the favouring of Russian (over Ukrainian) by the USSR for many decades, a lot of ethnic Ukrainians have also become native Russian speakers.

Some of these ethnic Ukrainian speakers occasionally speak very little Ukrainian.

Even in Kyiv which is not in the east of the country about half of the population are native Russian speakers, though almost all are ethnic Ukrainians.

Native language is not necessarily an indicator of political position or opinions of the war.

Many (maybe most) ethnic Ukrainian russophones support Ukraine and are against Putin.

Crimea was Turkic speaking even for many years after Russia took it over with Soviets sending in Russians. Donetsk also has a large transplant population. All of this is generations ago and even if caused in Crimea's case by Stalinist deportation is now a fact.

[MolsonExport]

Chronology of Ukrainian language suppression

very short abridgement:

The systematic suppression of the Ukrainian language by the Russian Empire began with the conquest of a large part of Ukraine by Russia (Left-bank Ukraine) in 1654–1667, and also after the liquidation of the Cossack Hetmanate and the Zaporozhian Sich in 1764 and 1775.

1914, 1916 – Russification campaign in western Ukraine, the prohibition of the Ukrainian word, education, church.

2014 – the Ukrainian language has been suppressed in Russia-occupied Crimea, so-called Luhansk People's Republic, and so-called Donetsk People's Republic

2022 – after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, high-level Russian officials repeatedly denying the existence of Ukrainian language (and Ukrainian culture and national identity) is cited as part of incitement to genocide in a report by more than thirty experts

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Crimea was Turkic speaking even for many years after Russia took it over with Soviets sending in Russians. Donetsk also has a large transplant population. All of this is generations ago and even if caused in Crimea's case by Stalinist deportation is now a fact.

As they used to say in my university courses, "possession is 9/10ths of the law". While not legally accurate, people live where they live even if the way they or their ancestors got there is seen as illegitimate.

I am not a supporter of the Russian position vis-à-vis Ukraine, but even I can admit that this does give some weight to Putin's designs (well, more than designs now) on Crimea and Donbass.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Anglophones are also not even close to being a majority on the island of Montreal. Only in specific enclaves of it.

I wonder how long though. I mean, with the changing demographics and the dwindling birth rate of the old Anglos, how long are their old 'bastions' going to hold?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think it's a mix. In eastern Ukraine a large share of the population are in fact ethnic Russians, and they form a majority in some places. This is also true of Crimea.

As a result of the presence of many ethnic Russians and also the favouring of Russian (over Ukrainian) by the USSR for many decades, a lot of ethnic Ukrainians have also become native Russian speakers.

Some of these ethnic Ukrainian speakers occasionally speak very little Ukrainian.

Even in Kyiv which is not in the east of the country about half of the population are native Russian speakers, though almost all are ethnic Ukrainians.

Native language is not necessarily an indicator of political position or opinions of the war.

Many (maybe most) ethnic Ukrainian russophones support Ukraine and are against Putin.

What is an "ethnic Russian" and an "ethnic Ukrainian" anyway? It would be like trying to distinguish "ethnic French people" from "ethnic Occitan people". Makes no sense.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I wonder how long though. I mean, with the changing demographics and the dwindling birth rate of the old Anglos, how long are their old 'bastions' going to hold?

Old stock anglos are already only a small fraction of the anglophone population. The "anglo community" today tends to be dominated by people of Italian, Greek and Ashkenazi origins.

Not sure about people of "English" origins but I know people of Irish and Scottish origins in Quebec today are slightly more likely to have French as a mother tongue than to be English mother tongue. This reflects their longer establishment in the province going back 100-200 years, whereas the Anglo-Italians, Anglo-Greeks and Anglo-Jews we have here are a reflection of 20th century immigration and socio-political dynamics back then that favoured their anglicization.

As for the old anglo bastions in Montreal, yes it's true they are changing but they often aren't simply being taken over by French Canadians, but rather becoming "globalized urban territories" that often feel like a mix between Seine-St-Denis and a very multicultural part of east end London.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What is an "ethnic Russian" and an "ethnic Ukrainian" anyway? It would be like trying to distinguish "ethnic French people" from "ethnic Occitan people". Makes no sense.

This is the P(o)utin(e) argument. That Ukrainians don't exist as a people distinct from the Russians.

Is an Austrian different from a German? More or less different than a Russian and a Ukrainian?

How are Suisses romands and Wallons different from people in France?

[Acajack]

For me as a person with little knowledge of the cultures, one obvious difference is in surnames.

Ukrainian surnames often end in "enko", "chuk" or "ysyn".

Russian names do not.

Of course people have crossed over the border back and forth over centuries. So some Russian people have Ukrainian-sounding surnames and vice-versa.

Similarly, here in French Canada I can recognize Acadien surnames which are often different from Canadien (Québécois) surnames. Even if they are all originally French-derived. And even if Acadien surnames are present in Quebec and Canadien surnames are present in Acadia.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is the P(o)utin(e) argument. That Ukrainians don't exist as a people distinct from the Russians.

Is an Austrian different from a German? More or less different than a Russian and a Ukrainian?

How are Suisses romands and Wallons different from people in France?

You are officially North American. You've been contaminated by their whole ethnic (or rather "racial") view of humanity.

Nations are not defined only by ethnicity. The French people are not defined by an ethnicity. The Austrians are not defined by an ethnicity. To name just two nations.

There can exist a Ukrainian nation even if a Ukrainian "ethnicity" doesn't exist. Réfléchis y cette nuit.

In any case the people of the Donbas had their ancestors speaking Ukrainian dialects, just like the people of the region of Rostov-sur-le-Don in Russia, and just as the people of Kursk and Belgorod in Russia too. All the southern areas of the vast Eastern Slavic realm spoke Ukrainian dialects, which extended far beyond the current borders of Ukraine. It just happened that those most to the east adopted the standard Russian language as their language of communication and education, whereas those to the west adopted a standard Ukrainian language as their "national" language.

Only Crimea and the Odessa areas, which were not originally inhabited by Slavs, were settled by people who never spoke Ukrainian dialects, as they came from further north in areas speaking Russian dialects (or came from south-eastern areas already Russified).

It's far, far more complicated than "here are some ethnic Ukrainians" and "here are some ethnic Russians" (how do you tell? it's written on their forehead?). Zelensky feels like he's a Ukrainian, yet his mother tongue was Russian and his ancestors were Jews, not Slavs. So where is the "ethnic Ukrainian" here?

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Weird. No one has ever picked on me for speaking French in NYC. (thinking of it, dunno whether I ever spoke French in NYC... how did you speak French in NYC?)

PS: Oh, actually, I did speak French once in an Afghanese restaurant in Manhattan with a cousin of mine (who now lives in Montréal as it were). No one seemed to notice. In fact that's what I like about the US: people don't care and don't notice. You can behave however you want, nobody pays attention, which is great. The exact opposite of Paris where you're on constant notice, constantly watched, which I hate.

Last time I was in NYC, I ( with very little maturity ) exclaimed to my friends how much this street vendor in little italy was a scammer charging 8 USD for a tiny canoli in french, and to my great horror the vendor suddenly said ''Désolé''. He was north african pretty sure. Funny story, moral is to always stay polite even when you think people can't understand you.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Typical conversation with a French journalist (who is otherwise a rather good journalist, writing about the excesses of the 'Green' lobby in France, with always very researched articles). Don't expect the French to defend their own language. This is pretty much the last thing they'll do. Québec is on its own here.

They think it's cool to mix in english or english sayings in their french. C'est aberrant. Comment je déteste entendre ça surtout qu'ils prononcent trop mal l'anglais

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You are officially North American. You've been contaminated by their whole ethnic (or rather "racial") view of humanity.

Nations are not defined only by ethnicity. The French people are not defined by an ethnicity. The Austrians are not defined by an ethnicity. To name just two nations.

There can exist a Ukrainian nation even if a Ukrainian "ethnicity" doesn't exist. Réfléchis y cette nuit.

In any case the people of the Donbas had their ancestors speaking Ukrainian dialects, just like the people of the region of Rostov-sur-le-Don in Russia, and just as the people of Kursk and Belgorod in Russia too. All the southern areas of the vast Eastern Slavic realm spoke Ukrainian dialects, which extended far beyond the current borders of Ukraine. It just happened that those most to the east adopted the standard Russian language as their language of communication and education, whereas those to the west adopted a standard Ukrainian language as their "national" language.

Only Crimea and the Odessa areas, which were not originally inhabited by Slavs, were settled by people who never spoke Ukrainian dialects, as they came from further north in areas speaking Russian dialects (or came from south-eastern areas already Russified).

It's far, far more complicated than "here are some ethnic Ukrainians" and "here are some ethnic Russians" (how do you tell? it's written on their forehead?). Zelensky feels like he's a Ukrainian, yet his mother tongue was Russian and his ancestors were Jews, not Slavs. So where is the "ethnic Ukrainian" here?

I am just entertaining the various visions that are out there. I got into an SSP fight a few days ago with people who kept calling me « French ».

And no I don’t consider Lula Da Silva to be « Portuguese » or Anthony Fauci to be « Italian ».

[Acajack]

It’s often pointed out by Québécois nationalists that ROCers deep down think that everyone is an « ethnic » except for themselves (Anglo ROCers). Which is the source of their inability to « get » Québec.

[MolsonExport]

Problem is "Throwing someone under the bus" is a very common expression in the United States.

Ah, the overconfidence bias strikes again...

As well as people taking umbrage...

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It’s often pointed out by Québécois nationalists that ROCers deep down think that everyone is an « ethnic » except for themselves (Anglo ROCers). Which is the source of their inability to « get » Québec.

As much as we pretend we aren't, humans are super tribal. We'll always find SOME way to arbitrarily demarcate "us" from "them". And it's not even consistent across contexts!

[MolsonExport]

same source as the inability for many Quebecois to "get" the rest of Canada.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am just entertaining the various visions that are out there. I got into an SSP fight a few days ago with people who kept calling me « French ».

NB keeps calling 'us' Anglo-Saxons.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Problem is "Throwing someone under the bus" is a very common expression in the United States.

Never heard it while living there. Never. A NYTimes article I saw the other day suggests it's a fairly recent expression popularized by Obama.

In any case it's certainly not a French expression. She's read it in the British media, which our French journalists use as their only source of inspiration it seems (it's always funny when I read a story in the Financial Times or The Guardian, and, surprise surprise, this exact same story appears 3 days later in the French media). This one-sided source of inspiration is pathetic. They never read German, Spanish, Italian media, only British media.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

NB keeps calling 'us' Anglo-Saxons.

"Anglo-Saxon" is a cultural term, not an ethnic one. That's why it includes the Irish.