Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Apparently your legalization of cannabis is a resounding failure, or so these guys say... France still in full "prohibition" mode.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by harls

You guys are really throwing NB under the bus on this one.

what did we do now?

[MolsonExport]

Throw someone under the bus? Very commonplace expression throughout Canada and the United States.

[harls]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

what did we do now?

I think I am on his block list now, along with a few others.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

And this is south-east, the former mayor of Marseille, an accent that is fast dying:

• Video Link

Wow, thanks so much for sharing this, it’s like hearing my paternal grandpa again (he passed a couple years ago). Despite spending most of his life in Quebec, he never lost the accent.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by harls

I think I am on his block list now, along with a few others.

ahhh the user, not the province of NB

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Wow, thanks so much for sharing this, it’s like hearing my paternal grandpa again (he passed a couple years ago). Despite spending most of his life in Quebec, he never lost the accent.

Never heard him on TV? He was quite a fixture in France. He died last year.

The Marseille Rap band IAM even mentioned him in one of their song (back when French rap music was good).

It's this one, at 2:55 in the song. These guys have the traditional Marseille South-Eastern accent by the way (but they are not the younger generation anymore).

• Video Link

Marseille has fallen a lot in the past 20 years. It had lots of potential, but they have completely wasted it. It was as large as Barcelona until the beginning of the 20th century, and also larger than Montréal needless to say.

[harls]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

ahhh the user, not the province of NB

Who wants to read posts from an Anglo-Saxon dude that's lived in Québec for 25 years anyway?

[New Brisavoine]

Food for thought: in little more than 10 months, the largest Francophone city in the German-speaking canton of Bern will leave the canton of Bern and join the Francophone canton of Jura. The two cantons have now agreed on the transfer (after three local votes, this being direct-democracy Switzerland, in 2017, 2021, and 2024).

It's as if Edmundston voted to join Québec, and both provinces agreed to the transfer of the city to Québec.

La dernière ligne droite pour le transfert de Moutier dans le Jura

RFJ
22 février 2025

Les démarches destinées à prévoir l’arrivée de Moutier dans le canton du Jura au 1er janvier prochain battent leur plein pour Patrick Tanner, le responsable de l’accueil de la cité prévôtoise.



https://www.rfj.ch/rfj/Actualite/Region/...e-transfert-de-Moutier-dans-le-Jura.html

Avec l'entrée de Moutier dans le Jura, 5600 plaques d'immatriculation seront échangées gratuitement dès 2026

RTS
24 février 2025



https://www.rts.ch/info/regions/jura/202...ion-echangees-gratuitement-28800978.html

[lio45]

The problem with allowing that sort of transfer is that you incentivize "linguistic colonization". To get back to an example you yourself discussed, it's exactly what the Flemish want to avoid in the Bruxelles suburbs: if you let the francophones move in, then later when they're a majority they'll vote to officially switch to Wallonie. There are good reasons to make sure borders always stay where they were, regardless of future ethnic composition. Another good real-life example of how it can be a problem would be Russians moving into Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, then these regions later democratically vote to break away from Ukraine on the grounds that they're mostly not Ukrainian anymore these days.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lio45

The problem with allowing that sort of transfer is that you incentivize "linguistic colonization". To get back to an example you yourself discussed, it's exactly what the Flemish want to avoid in the Bruxelles suburbs: if you let the francophones move in, then later when they're a majority they'll vote to officially switch to Wallonie. There are good reasons to make sure borders always stay where they were, regardless of future ethnic composition. Another good real-life example of how it can be a problem would be Russians moving into Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, then these regions later democratically vote to break away from Ukraine on the grounds that they're mostly not Ukrainian anymore these days.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Food for thought: in little more than 10 months, the largest Francophone city in the German-speaking canton of Bern will leave the canton of Bern and join the Francophone canton of Jura. The two cantons have now agreed on the transfer (after three local votes, this being direct-democracy Switzerland, in 2017, 2021, and 2024).

It's as if Edmundston voted to join Québec, and both provinces agreed to the transfer of the city to Québec.

Switzerland is not exactly Donetsk. The Swiss model is often used as a suggestion for those with ethnic strife but the history and probably importantly the wealth of Switzerland makes it work there. Decentralization elsewhere seems to as often lead to disintegration of states.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Marseille has fallen a lot in the past 20 years. It had lots of potential, but they have completely wasted it. It was as large as Barcelona until the beginning of the 20th century, and also larger than Montréal needless to say.

I didn’t pick up on the “dangerous” or “unsafe” vibe when visiting there last year, but it does seem quite run down in certain areas. Graffiti can be cool, for example, but in the extreme it can also signify decay. It reminds me of South America, which is often worse because you’ll even see monuments and important cultural buildings covered in graffiti.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Another good real-life example of how it can be a problem would be Russians moving into Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, then these regions later democratically vote to break away from Ukraine on the grounds that they're mostly not Ukrainian anymore these days.

Russians did not move into Luhansk and Donetsk. It is Ukrainians who became Russified over time.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

the history and probably importantly the wealth of Switzerland makes it work there. Decentralization elsewhere seems to as often lead to disintegration of states.

Actually the 'question jurassienne' has been rather violent over time, with bomb attacks and even some deaths.

[Acajack]

At the very least, Switzerland can be said at this point to be more socio-politically mature than Canada when it comes to such matters.

I'd say that's a fairly rare trait. In most places in the world people remain quite touchy about these things.

[MolsonExport]

Yeah, but I wonder how opinions in this thread would shift if the conversation was about parts of Pontiac and the West Island seceding from Quebec to join Ontario?

For the record, this is NOT something I support.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Yeah, but I wonder how opinions in this thread would shift if the conversation was about parts of Pontiac and the West Island seceding from Quebec to join Ontario?

For the record, this is NOT something I support.

Since Quebecers, including francophones, are also included in "Canadians", they are definitely part of the group lacking in socio-political maturity when it comes to these matters.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Yeah, but I wonder how opinions in this thread would shift if the conversation was about parts of Pontiac and the West Island seceding from Quebec to join Ontario?

For the record, this is NOT something I support.

Linguistic minorities living in majority territories along provincial borders should be allowed to switch provinces if they so wish. That would make it easier for everybody. So the Anglophone areas along the Ontario border should be able to join Ontario, and vice versa, the Francophone areas of Ontario along the Québec border should be allowed to join Québec.

Obviously that should not apply to the island of Montréal which is not on the border of Ontario. You don't want to create enclaves and exclaves everywhere.

[MolsonExport]

I think it is a bad precedent. What if some enclave suddenly became swamped with speakers of the other language, despite centuries of being a part of the previously-dominant group?

Why should it come down to language differences, irrespective of other differences? If so, then why does Switzerland, Belgium, and other countries with large linguistic minorities exist, if they could just be merged into Germany, France, Italy, and the Netherlands? Why does Austria continue to exist? Scotland is almost 100% English speaking....but about 40% of the people there are in favour of separation.

There are many border regions where people speak a language that is different from the majority. Borders are not always hard-edged divisions. Besides, one could easily gerrymander the region of a given area to make the case for/against secession.

if people in Edmunston reallly want to live in Quebec, it isn't far away.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Linguistic minorities living in majority territories along provincial borders should be allowed to switch provinces if they so wish. That would make it easier for everybody. So the Anglophone areas along the Ontario border should be able to join Ontario, and vice versa, the Francophone areas of Ontario along the Québec border should be allowed to join Québec.

Obviously that should not apply to the island of Montréal which is not on the border of Ontario. You don't want to create enclaves and exclaves everywhere.

Anglophones are also not even close to being a majority on the island of Montreal. Only in specific enclaves of it.