Canadian Federal Election

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I hope we can have these conversations in real life soon. The Trump anti political correctness vibe is gingerly entering our corporate culture and once PP is elected I hope he follows through to stamp out DEI here in Canada (but without the white supremacist vibe we see in the US).

If Carney wins and his "move to the centre" focuses more on anti-DEI stuff than austerity, he might actually have a chance. I suspect his "move to the centre" is just going to be "austerity + double down on cultural leftism" in which case, bye-bye to the LPC.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Arya also doesn't speak French, refuses to acknowledge the importance of learning it, wants to recognize Palestine as a state, and has concerning ties to the India's nationalist government.

I hope that he's disqualified because he didn't meet the requirements, not because of his views or because he's a possible agent of India.

Edit: CBC is hinting that it may be because he's been found "manifestly unsuited" - stay tuned.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

If Carney wins and his "move to the centre" focuses more on anti-DEI stuff than austerity, he might actually have a chance. I suspect his "move to the centre" is just going to be "austerity + double down on cultural leftism" in which case, bye-bye to the LPC.

Is "DEI stuff" even an issue in Canada? It seems to me like an import from a neighbouring country.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I have very mixed feelings on Ford. To his credit he has put a lot of political capital into infrastructure. But he is a failure at being a fiscal conservative and is definitely a failure when it comes to not letting "the groups" walk all over him. I would rank Ford above all three of Trudeau, Carney, and Poilievre, but not by much.

I find Ford to be a moderate, populist buffoon who only succeeds because there is no serious political opposition in Ontario. Most concerning, I suspect that there is corruption in his government. In fact, I wonder whether this isn't the real reason for the early election - isn't there a report due on the Greenbelt boondoggle? The Ontario Place/Science Centre thing also stinks to high heaven and has a "follow the money" flavour to it.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Is "DEI stuff" even an issue in Canada? It seems to me like an import from a neighbouring country.

Define an issue? It's certainly for some. The Libs lost 15 points to the Conservatives which is mostly inflation but a few points is for sure especially young men tired of the Canadian DEI agenda though granted it's more corporate for most of them. In Ottawa where the federal government is the employer and contractor of choice it's a bigger issue though even a white male has to think twice before voting for PP who will save the public service.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

If Carney wins and his "move to the centre" focuses more on anti-DEI stuff than austerity, he might actually have a chance. I suspect his "move to the centre" is just going to be "austerity + double down on cultural leftism" in which case, bye-bye to the LPC.

I think absolutely he thinks over-spending is the issue and DEI and Climate change just need to be rebranded and de-emphasized. His pollster said so publicly (before he worked for him but still). I don't know if that's wrong actually. He can say we need a course correction but need to continue to respect people and the environment and the suburban women will flock back to the Liberals.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

All parties should have constitutions where only longstanding serious party members are eligible to vote for party leadership. Otherwise, the system becomes much too capricious and highly susceptible to meddling from special interest groups, political subterfuge or foreign interference.

I would suggest selling party memberships for no less than $250 dollars, requiring potential electors to be party members for no less than three years, and, returning to brokered conventions where each riding sends about 10 electors to a national convention to select the leader. This would make the voting system much, much more secure.

On a scale of one to ten, how much does it trigger you that one only has to be 14 years old to vote in the Liberal leadership race?

As for only “long standing and serious party members” being able to vote, let alone party membership being sold at the low, low cost of $250… I’m not sure I could have dreamed up a more out of touch and elitist approach to improving political participation in Canada.

$250 dollars is just a beyond ludicrous suggestion for what party membership fees should cost and is perhaps the most classist thing I’ve ever heard you say, Doc… come on you can’t be serious?

How long would you need to be in the party to be a long standing member? How would you deem which members of the party are serious or unserious? It’s not a viable solution for any big tent political party, especially not in Canada where we don’t have anything nearly as popular and participatory as the US primary politics… we need solutions to increase political participation, not ideas to make it more classist, elitist, and financially burdensome.

Where I might agree with you, is on PR holders being able to vote in party’s selection processes. I think PR holders should only be able to vote if they can prove they are on the road to citizenship. If someone is still a PR holder and not a citizen after ten years of PR or something like that, then I don’t think they should be able to vote in the leadership or candidate selection processes, because you clearly won’t be voting in the next election, or any election for that matter.

Permanent, Permanent Residents are people with no intention to ever become eligible voters, and they shouldn’t be impacting the selection process.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Define an issue? It's certainly for some. The Libs lost 15 points to the Conservatives which is mostly inflation but a few points is for sure especially young men tired of the Canadian DEI agenda though granted it's more corporate for most of them. In Ottawa where the federal government is the employer and contractor of choice it's a bigger issue though even a white male has to think twice before voting for PP who will save the public service.

.....

I must confess, I've never heard a peep about it. Complaints would strike me as coming from younger guys who can't compete in the market place.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

On a scale of one to ten, how much does it trigger you that one only has to be 14 years old to vote in the Liberal leadership race?

As for only “long standing and serious party members” being able to vote, let alone party membership being sold at the low, low cost of $250… I’m not sure I could have dreamed up a more out of touch and elitist approach to improving political participation in Canada.

$250 dollars is just a beyond ludicrous suggestion for what party membership fees should cost and is perhaps the most classist thing I’ve ever heard you say, Doc… come on you can’t be serious?

How long would you need to be in the party to be a long standing member? How would you deem which members of the party are serious or unserious? It’s not a viable solution for any big tent political party, especially not in Canada where we don’t have anything nearly as popular and participatory as the US primary politics… we need solutions to increase political participation, not ideas to make it more classist, elitist, and financially burdensome.

Where I might agree with you, is on PR holders being able to vote in party’s selection processes. I think PR holders should only be able to vote if they can prove they are on the road to citizenship. If someone is still a PR holder and not a citizen after ten years of PR or something like that, then I don’t think they should be able to vote in the leadership or candidate selection processes, because you clearly won’t be voting in the next election, or any election for that matter.

Permanent, Permanent Residents are people with no intention to ever become eligible voters, and they shouldn’t be impacting the selection process.

I think our nomination and leadership processes will need a close look and soon.

For leadership maybe going back to conventions. This was also more dramatic and allowed less candidates to sway things though that's a big reason they stopped I know.

Nominations are even more vulnerable. Probably long-standing members instead of getting candidates to sign them up. I know they idea is they are growing the party but that seems clearly not to be the case.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I must confess, I've never heard a peep about it. Complaints would strike me as coming from younger guys who can't compete in the market place.

Yeah that's easy to dismiss. If you work for government or a big corporation and don't hear it I guess you aren't someone they feel they can tell that to. ( I don't mean that pejoratively. You could be a vocal ally and nothing wrong with that. I have an old friend in the army who is very vocal on these issues especially on misogynic culture and the danger of Trump and when my friends get dragged to the same bars to watch sports or whatever they don't say a word when minutes before they were complaining about biased family law or whatever)

I also hear it from the other side as women 25-30 consistently say the men of their generation are Conservative and misognyist which is basically them saying the men are anti DEI/feminist. Watch Rogan or Petterson for example.

I even hear it from even POC who tell me there is widespread racism AND DEI promotions are token. They say there's no actual evidence they have addressed anything. I am not sure what they propose tbh.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think our nomination and leadership processes will need a close look and soon.

For leadership maybe going back to conventions. This was also more dramatic and allowed less candidates to sway things though that's a big reason they stopped I know.

Nominations are even more vulnerable. Probably long-standing members instead of getting candidates to sign them up. I know they idea is they are growing the party but that seems clearly not to be the case.

Liberal leadership contests are known for bussing in FOBs to cast a vote.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Liberal leadership contests are known for bussing in FOBs to cast a vote.

"FOBs"?

[theman23]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

"FOBs"?

One of these things:


https://www.clikapad.com/audience-participation/clicker-systems/

[Build.It]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

"FOBs"?

Fresh Off the Boat

It's slang for recently arrived immigrants.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Build.It

Fresh Off the Boat

It's racist slang for recently arrived immigrants.

Fixed that for you.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Fixed that for you.

It's a bit racist (but also accurate given immigration history) to assume a bunch of Sikhs supporting a leadership candidate are all recent immigrants and not native Canadians who happen to be Sikh which certainly especially the younger ones often are.

But is it racist to call new immigrants fresh off the boat? While we don't use boats anymore isn't that accurately describing their status?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It's a bit racist (but also accurate given immigration history) to assume a bunch of Sikhs supporting a leadership candidate are all recent immigrants and not native Canadians who happen to be Sikh which certainly especially the younger ones often are.

But is it racist to call new immigrants fresh off the boat? While we don't use boats anymore isn't that accurately describing their status?

It’s acceptable if we’re talking about cars. But I don’t think it’s an acceptable term to use to refer to people, even though many Asians refer to themselves with the term endearingly. Obviously, though, it’s nowhere near some far more viciously racist slurs.

Anyways, I think voting in party leadership/candidate selection in Canada should be limited to citizens and permanent residents who intend to become citizens. “Permanent” permanent residents with no intention of becoming citizens shouldn’t be eligible to participate.

It would be easy enough to enforce this based on how long someone has held PR for without obtaining citizenship.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Fixed that for you.

Truth hurts, I guess.

It’s been standard Liberal stock in trade. Who could forget this:

Canadian Lawmaker Testifies Chinese Students Were Bused In to Elect Him
Han Dong, a member of Parliament who is accused of benefiting from the Chinese government’s help, testified at a public hearing on foreign interference

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/02/world/canada/canada-election-china-han-dong.html

[Acajack]

FOB never used to be racist, anyway. It was even used quite a bit by virtuous people on SSP in the past.

Similar to saying certain words (referentially, of course). A couple years ago we had people going apeshit over that and then I easily found old posts of theirs from just a few years back where they used the word in full. Referentially of course, not as an insult. Guess they forget to go back and check and delete before going apeshit.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yeah that's easy to dismiss. If you work for government or a big corporation and don't hear it I guess you aren't someone they feel they can tell that to. ( I don't mean that pejoratively. You could be a vocal ally and nothing wrong with that. I have an old friend in the army who is very vocal on these issues especially on misogynic culture and the danger of Trump and when my friends get dragged to the same bars to watch sports or whatever they don't say a word when minutes before they were complaining about biased family law or whatever)

I also hear it from the other side as women 25-30 consistently say the men of their generation are Conservative and misognyist which is basically them saying the men are anti DEI/feminist. Watch Rogan or Petterson for example.

I even hear it from even POC who tell me there is widespread racism AND DEI promotions are token. They say there's no actual evidence they have addressed anything. I am not sure what they propose tbh.

I hear criticism and anger towards EDI and “woke stuff” all the time from people of all generations and all walks of life.

Note that most are people who would otherwise be Liberal voters.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I hope we can have these conversations in real life soon. The Trump anti political correctness vibe is gingerly entering our corporate culture and once PP is elected I hope he follows through to stamp out DEI here in Canada (but without the white supremacist vibe we see in the US).

As with most pendulum swings backwards the backlash in the US is seeing lots of extreme views becoming normalized and you hear stuff like women shouldn’t be engineers or black people shouldn’t be pilots.

It should be possible to be critical of policies gone awry without saying that only white men are qualified for certain jobs. Which of course is absurd in and of itself.

But alas these are our times.