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View Poll Results: Who has the more positive vision for Canada's future?
Mark Carney's Liberals 176 73.95%
Pierre Poilievre's Conservatives 62 26.05%
Voters: 238. You may not vote on this poll

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  #161  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 1:57 PM
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For anyone who doesn't think election security is a serious issue:

There's a large number of X users registering as Liberals with the intention to vote for Arya with the idea it would destroy the party.

If they actually pull it off we will have, literally, a stolen PM's office.

For the sake of the country we should all be able to agree this is pretty f**ked up and we really need to secure our processes against this sort of thing.
I think everyone does agree, except for the political parties that allow it to happen.
     
     
  #162  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 4:14 PM
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Will Jagmeet continue to support the government if Arya wins? I’m almost tempted to register and vote for Arya myself just to find out. lol.
     
     
  #163  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
For anyone who doesn't think election security is a serious issue:

There's a large number of X users registering as Liberals with the intention to vote for Arya with the idea it would destroy the party.

If they actually pull it off we will have, literally, a stolen PM's office.

For the sake of the country we should all be able to agree this is pretty f**ked up and we really need to secure our processes against this sort of thing.
No it's not. LPC membership rules say that anyone in Canada can register and vote for free as long as they aren't already a member of another party.

Registering and voting for Arya to ensure Carney doesn't become the new PM is well within our rights and I would encourage you to do the same since you have similar concerns about the man as I do.

What would be fucked up is if the LPC decides to close the voting to insiders only. Right now they have a democracy at least (although I wish they would require IDs).

I personally will be voting for Arya as well since I like him better than the other candidates.
     
     
  #164  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 4:30 PM
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Arya would make an even worse PM. He's an actual joke. Sure he'd only be in office for a few months at most but that's true of all of the leadership candidates. Vote for Freeland if you're simply in to prevent Carney from being the lame duck and don't care about much else.
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  #165  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 4:57 PM
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Arya believes in free enterprise and small governments. Having him in opposition would make it much easier to get things done, since he'd be in agreement with Poilievre on the core things.

Freeland is a socialist who has shown she is more than happy to flip-flop to get votes. She is everything that is wrong with the Liberals. I would never vote for her.
     
     
  #166  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 5:57 PM
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Arya is out. I guess he didn't qualify to run.
     
     
  #167  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Build.It View Post
Arya believes in free enterprise and small governments. Having him in opposition would make it much easier to get things done, since he'd be in agreement with Poilievre on the core things.

Freeland is a socialist who has shown she is more than happy to flip-flop to get votes. She is everything that is wrong with the Liberals. I would never vote for her.
Arya is a Mohdi tool, does not have Canadian political interests at heart, and, since he is contemptuous of the French fact within Canada, would create conditions that could favour the destruction of the delicate balance needed to maintain the federation. He is the worst possible candidate for Liberal leadership and, if he won, I would fear for the future of Canada.

All parties should have constitutions where only longstanding serious party members are eligible to vote for party leadership. Otherwise, the system becomes much too capricious and highly susceptible to meddling from special interest groups, political subterfuge or foreign interference.

I would suggest selling party memberships for no less than $250 dollars, requiring potential electors to be party members for no less than three years, and, returning to brokered conventions where each riding sends about 10 electors to a national convention to select the leader. This would make the voting system much, much more secure.

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Arya is out. I guess he didn't qualify to run.
Very, VERY, VERY glad to hear this, but, it doesn't change my opinion regarding how party leaders should be chosen.

The Liberal Party also needs a mechanism by which a party leader who has overstayed his welcomecan be removed from the position. We wouldn't be in the mess we are right now if JT had been forced out last year.
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  #168  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 6:02 PM
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Arya believes in free enterprise and small governments. Having him in opposition would make it much easier to get things done, since he'd be in agreement with Poilievre on the core things.

Freeland is a socialist who has shown she is more than happy to flip-flop to get votes. She is everything that is wrong with the Liberals. I would never vote for her.
Arya also doesn't speak French, refuses to acknowledge the importance of learning it, wants to recognize Palestine as a state, and has concerning ties to the India's nationalist government.
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  #169  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 6:08 PM
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Arya is out. I guess he didn't qualify to run.
I told you guys a couple days ago the LPC is going to figure out a way to get other candidates to drop out so that Carney wins the race.

Mark my words, on March 9th it will be a vote between Carney and Freeland.
     
     
  #170  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 6:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
All parties should have constitutions where only longstanding serious party members are eligible to vote for party leadership. Otherwise, the system becomes much too capricious and highly susceptible to meddling from special interest groups, political subterfuge or foreign interference.

I would suggest selling party memberships for no less than $250 dollars, requiring potential electors to be party members for no less than three years, and, returning to brokered conventions where each riding sends about 10 electors to a national convention to select the leader. This would make the voting system much, much more secure.
I'm not sure if brokered conventions are a good idea - they create too much of an insider dynamic - but I can definitely see the logic. I'd want to try the rest of the reforms on your list first and see what that gets us. I think the longstanding member requirement (your idea that you must be a member for 3 years or more to vote in a leadership race) makes a lot of sense. It prevents leadership races from being literally bought by outsiders. Parties would resist this hard because they make a lot of money selling memberships during leadership races, so this is a politically difficult reform.

Another idea would be to add a role for the caucus. You can have a system where a prospective leader needs the signatures of a certain number of MPs from the party (say 5 or 10, or maybe a certain percentage) to be allowed to run and then the members vote from that list of caucus-endorsed candidates. The British Conservatives do a system where the party caucus does multi-round voting to narrow it down to 2 candidates, and then the party members decide between these top two candidates. Another rule the British Conservatives have is the candidates must be sitting MPs to be allowed to run. Rules like this don't prevent the leadership races from being bought by outsiders, but they do prevent really silly candidates from getting over the line through outside influence.
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Last edited by 1overcosc; Jan 26, 2025 at 6:22 PM.
     
     
  #171  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 6:10 PM
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I told you guys a couple days ago the LPC is going to figure out a way to get other candidates to drop out so that Carney wins the race.

Mark my words, on March 9th it will be a vote between Carney and Freeland.
I think Gould will make it over the line to make it a three way contest. She could be a kingmaker/queenmaker with her endorsement. This happens a lot in leadership races, actually - the perceived frontrunner ends up narrowly losing because third candidate supporters end up putting the second place candidate as their second choices. Both Andrew Scheer and Erin O'Toole won their leadership races this way; at the provincial level in Ontario so did Kathleen Wynne.

It's also not impossible for Gould to win if Freeland continues to disappoint and Gould ends up beating her to second place (say 41% Carney, 32% Gould, 27% Freeland, as a first ballot example). In this scenario Freeland's supporters might back Gould over Carney and result in the final ballot being a narrow win for Gould. Wouldn't that be something!
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  #172  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 6:18 PM
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Another thing to watch for is the points system. The Liberals are running like this like the Conservatives do, where every single riding in the country allocates 100 points to candidates and the winner of the most points wins the race, not the winner of most votes. So Liberal Party members in ridings with a smaller number of members have greater voting power than those in ridings with more members. A Liberal Party member in rural Saskatchewan thus has significantly more voting power in the race than a Liberal Party member in Montreal or Toronto would. (We saw this change the dynamic in the 2017 CPC race, where Bernier lost because Quebec dairy farmers alone control a huge number of points in the CPC race because of the number of rural Quebec ridings where they are basically the only CPC members).

So for Carney or Freeland it's not winning the most votes from members that will get them over the top, it's winning the most overall support from the different provinces & regions that will get them over the top. So Quebec members, while very influential in the Liberal party as a whole, aren't going to account for more than 23% of the leadership vote. Campaigning in rural Ontario or the Prairies probably has the highest potential return for either candidate.
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  #173  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 6:30 PM
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We do need better economics education but we also need a better approach to economic liberalism. For way too many folks, laissez-faire economic policy just makes their lives worse, because said policy is usually implemented very badly. I don't really blame people for adopting that slanted view.

It's similar on the social policy side as well. I think the "campus activist" style of social liberalism has taken things way too far and people are now craving a more conservative approach to issues, even people who would be on the losing side of all that (see "Gays for Trump", for example).

I personally would call myself part of that 6% that wants fiscal conservativism with social liberalism (I suspect most of SSP does as well) but we need to acknowledge that this faction has done a terrible job at policymaking. In my opinion, the root cause of this is failure is that this faction is too deferential to special interest groups who hijack the common good in favour of their own interests. This is why I personally am so hostile to the idea of Mark Carney as PM; he's basically the special interest groups incarnate. The LPC in general is like this, to be fair, but he takes it to an even higher level. To me the value of the current populist disruption is that it has the potential to finally defang these groups by teaching establishment politicians how to ignore them and promote the actual common good instead.

I like PP's willingness to tell the groups to f*** off. I don't like his actual ideology. My ideal PM would be someone who takes that "disruptor energy" and channels it into a more traditionally LPC-style ideology.
Since you live in Ontario, how do you see Doug Ford in relation to politicians like Trudeau, Carney and PP?
     
     
  #174  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 6:38 PM
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I'm not sure if brokered conventions are a good idea - they create too much of an insider dynamic - but I can definitely see the logic. .
They were certainly more fun to watch, even though they took all day. Watching after each result to see who is dropping out and where they are going, which candidate they endorse or what deals might be made. We don't get that anymore, your vote is cast days ago, ranked ballot, good luck making up your mind who you think your candidate would endorse if they came in last.

Anyway, if anyone is wanting to vote in this leadership, the deadline is the 27th, so you only have a day left to join.
     
     
  #175  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 6:39 PM
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I think Gould will make it over the line to make it a three way contest. She could be a kingmaker/queenmaker with her endorsement. This happens a lot in leadership races, actually - the perceived frontrunner ends up narrowly losing because third candidate supporters end up putting the second place candidate as their second choices. Both Andrew Scheer and Erin O'Toole won their leadership races this way; at the provincial level in Ontario so did Kathleen Wynne.

It's also not impossible for Gould to win if Freeland continues to disappoint and Gould ends up beating her to second place (say 41% Carney, 32% Gould, 27% Freeland, as a first ballot example). In this scenario Freeland's supporters might back Gould over Carney and result in the final ballot being a narrow win for Gould. Wouldn't that be something!
Gould doesn't have very many people backing her at the moment so I have a hard time seeing that happen. But I know what you mean how someone can win in a surprise. I just don't know if people would have her as a second choice.
     
     
  #176  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 7:13 PM
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Coletto retweeted an analysis I saw a while ago that I posted about here before but couldn't find it at the time.

https://x.com/DavidColetto/status/1883122101298868225?t=gLJphrpmP5E0d8e4Z0uF1g&s=19

The narrative that being "socially progressive and fiscally conservative" is some sweet spot is totally false. Only 6% of the electorate is like that. The opposite combination - being fiscally progressive and socially conservative - is actually much more common at 21% of the electorate.

Overall:
-24% are progressive both economically & socially
-17% are conservative both economically & socially
-6% are conservative economically but progressive socially
-21% are progressive economically but conservative socially

On social issues 30% are progressive and 36% are conservative.

On economic issues 45% are progressive and only 23% are conservative.

So the "conventional wisdom" - that everyone is socially progressive and only economics is the basis for difference between left & right, meaning the conservatives have to appeal to "balanced budget+ social liberalism" to be electable - is actually complete hogwash.

Canadians overwhelmingly prefer - by a margin of more than two to one - left wing economic policy. But on social cultural policy Canadians are more divided with a slight plurality actually being conservative.

Coletto then goes on to note that the CPC is very popular right now with the "socially conservative + economically progressive" side of the quadrant which feels very alienated by the "pink haired politics" of the LPC and the NDP.

This also suggests that PP will become very unpopular shortly after taking office, Starmer style, as he'll interpret his win as a mandate of austerity when it's not.

It also suggests the logical approach for Carney or Freeland is not to move right on economics, but to stay the course on being economically progressive while moving right on social-cultural issues.
Coletto is making some sweeping conclusions here, using 10 positions each to gauge respondents' alignment to social and economic left–right axes. For transparency, those statements are as follows:

Social
-Abortion should be legal in all or most circumstances.
-Canada is the greatest country in the world.
-It is more important to protect the right of Canadians to own guns.
-The government should deal with illegal immigration by increasing border security and enforcement.
-Transgender athletes should be able to play on sports teams that match their current gender identity.
-The government should prevent people from engaging in hate speech against certain groups in public.
-The best way to deal with drug addiction is to expand harm reduction strategies such as safe consumption sites to reduce the risks associated with drug use.
-Racism is built into our society, including into its policies and institutions.
-We need to reallocate funding from police departments to social services.
-There are still significant obstacles that make it harder for women to get ahead than men.

Economic
-Hard work and determination are no guarantee of success for most people.
-I would rather have a bigger government providing more services.
-The fact that some people in the [sic] Canada are rich and others are poor is a problem that needs to be fixed.
-Government regulation of business is necessary to protect the public interest.
-Free trade agreements have generally hurt Canadians.
-It is the responsibility of government that everybody has healthcare coverage.
-Business should always try to make as much profit as possible.
-We should raise taxes on people making more than $250,000 a year.
-It should be illegal to own more than one home in Canada.
-There should be a cap on the amount of greenhouse gas emissions the oil & gas sector can emit.

The results can be found here.

Generally, I am skeptical of any approach that breaks down issues or beliefs into discrete social and economic categories. I would argue that there is a strong economic dimension to most of the statements classified as social issues here, and even stronger social dimensions to the economic issues.

Putting this objection aside, I would also argue that the statements used here are not particularly useful at measuring the political climate in Canada at this time. Some are too broad and open to different interpretations: Do you disagree with the "greatest country" statement because you reject the idea that any country is greatest or because Canada is a genocidal colonial state or because Canada is a socialist Sodom? Do you disagree that safe injection sites are the best solution to drug addiction issues because you believe safe injection sites encourage addicts to keep using or because you think a robust healthcare system that prevents addiction in the first place would be better?

Others seem to miss the mark: A ban on owning more than one home, for example, is rather fringe in the discourse on the housing crisis. Indeed, some topics included here seem to be pulled more from the US political discourse, while many topics at the fore in the Canadian political discourse are missing (e.g., truth and reconciliation, public broadcasting, CanCon regulations, the role of the private sector in healthcare, legal immigration, childcare, supply management, minority language rights, etc.).

I am also curious how representative their sample is of the Canadian population as a whole. Like, did they even offer the survey in French?

On a broader level, I would caution against using an analysis like this as a basis or buttress for our understanding of the political landscape in Canada. Publication bias is a thing, and articles about most people agreeing on most things aren't going to get many clicks or much social media engagement.

In his analysis of the survey results, Coletto divides Canadians into four competing tribes, and I get it feels good/validating to see your team "winning". But this is—quite literally in this case—a two-dimensional understanding of a complex and evolving body politic. At the end of the day, I quite earnestly believe that (aside from a few fringe idealogues, hopeless contrarians and the terminally online) Canadians still respect each other and recognize the value of engaging/working with others despite different opinions on issues x, y or z.
     
     
  #177  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 7:28 PM
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Since you live in Ontario, how do you see Doug Ford in relation to politicians like Trudeau, Carney and PP?
I have very mixed feelings on Ford. To his credit he has put a lot of political capital into infrastructure. But he is a failure at being a fiscal conservative and is definitely a failure when it comes to not letting "the groups" walk all over him. I would rank Ford above all three of Trudeau, Carney, and Poilievre, but not by much.
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  #178  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by wg_flamip View Post
Coletto is making some sweeping conclusions here, using 10 positions each to gauge respondents' alignment to social and economic left–right axes. For transparency, those statements are as follows:

Social
-Abortion should be legal in all or most circumstances.
-Canada is the greatest country in the world.
-It is more important to protect the right of Canadians to own guns.
-The government should deal with illegal immigration by increasing border security and enforcement.
-Transgender athletes should be able to play on sports teams that match their current gender identity.
-The government should prevent people from engaging in hate speech against certain groups in public.
-The best way to deal with drug addiction is to expand harm reduction strategies such as safe consumption sites to reduce the risks associated with drug use.
-Racism is built into our society, including into its policies and institutions.
-We need to reallocate funding from police departments to social services.
-There are still significant obstacles that make it harder for women to get ahead than men.

Economic
-Hard work and determination are no guarantee of success for most people.
-I would rather have a bigger government providing more services.
-The fact that some people in the [sic] Canada are rich and others are poor is a problem that needs to be fixed.
-Government regulation of business is necessary to protect the public interest.
-Free trade agreements have generally hurt Canadians.
-It is the responsibility of government that everybody has healthcare coverage.
-Business should always try to make as much profit as possible.
-We should raise taxes on people making more than $250,000 a year.
-It should be illegal to own more than one home in Canada.
-There should be a cap on the amount of greenhouse gas emissions the oil & gas sector can emit.

The results can be found here.

Generally, I am skeptical of any approach that breaks down issues or beliefs into discrete social and economic categories. I would argue that there is a strong economic dimension to most of the statements classified as social issues here, and even stronger social dimensions to the economic issues.

Putting this objection aside, I would also argue that the statements used here are not particularly useful at measuring the political climate in Canada at this time. Some are too broad and open to different interpretations: Do you disagree with the "greatest country" statement because you reject the idea that any country is greatest or because Canada is a genocidal colonial state or because Canada is a socialist Sodom? Do you disagree that safe injection sites are the best solution to drug addiction issues because you believe safe injection sites encourage addicts to keep using or because you think a robust healthcare system that prevents addiction in the first place would be better?

Others seem to miss the mark: A ban on owning more than one home, for example, is rather fringe in the discourse on the housing crisis. Indeed, some topics included here seem to be pulled more from the US political discourse, while many topics at the fore in the Canadian political discourse are missing (e.g., truth and reconciliation, public broadcasting, CanCon regulations, the role of the private sector in healthcare, legal immigration, childcare, supply management, minority language rights, etc.).

I am also curious how representative their sample is of the Canadian population as a whole. Like, did they even offer the survey in French
Abacus is a panel pollster that has an A-grade level of accuracy at predicting election results, so I wouldn't be concerned about representativeness of their sample.

That question list is actually pretty good, I think. Yes it does have a bit of a US-lean to it but remember that a lot of our political discourse on both left and right is very US-influenced. The questions also counterbalance more moderate opinions with more extreme ones.
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  #179  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 7:35 PM
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I want to say that I appreciate the conversations and debates we have on here. Regardless of your political position, and how much we might agree/disagree. It is much more important to have these conversations with our fellow citizens than to dodge them and stay in the echo chamber. We all have different lives, different experiences, and different upbringings that have formed our views. I am a stubborn asshole but am no better than anyone else on here, and I appreciate these conversations. So thank you.
     
     
  #180  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2025, 7:43 PM
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Sidebar:

I want to say that I appreciate the conversations and debates we have on here. Regardless of your political position, and how much we might agree/disagree. It is much more important to have these conversations with our fellow citizens than to dodge them and stay in the echo chamber. We all have different lives, different experiences, and different upbringings that have formed our views. I am a stubborn asshole but am no better than anyone else on here, and I appreciate these conversations. So thank you.
I hope we can have these conversations in real life soon. The Trump anti political correctness vibe is gingerly entering our corporate culture and once PP is elected I hope he follows through to stamp out DEI here in Canada (but without the white supremacist vibe we see in the US).
     
     
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