Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

If we can't identify ourselves amongst a crowd that'd be an existential identity crisis? Accents, speech, Jays and Raptors caps, etc.

I always used to say that for me (and this works for most people like me), I actually wouldn't really need a passport to prove to the immigration officer at Dorval airport in Montreal that I am a Canadian citizen. Just my name and the way I speak would prove with 99.9% certainty that I am from here. (Which is probably as good an accuracy rate as the stats on countering passport fraud.)

I wonder if people in certain other places in the world would say the same about themselves?

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Because Anglo-Canadians are extremely and clearly different from Americans in terms of language, demeanour, attitude, style, etc.

Everyone knows that and can instantly tell the difference, right?

Honestly, it isn't that hard to pick apart the Ontarians from the Americans when you're in Montreal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by theman23

Honestly, it isn't that hard to pick apart the Ontarians from the Americans when you're in Montreal.

In all honesty, it's sometimes even hard to pick apart the native Anglo-Montrealers from Americans there.

It's even a pet peeve of theirs, especially those who don't speak French or at least don't use French at all when out in public.

They may get asked where they're visiting from, which of course pisses them off because they actually live there, or maybe even were born there.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by theman23

Honestly, it isn't that hard to pick apart the Ontarians from the Americans when you're in Montreal.

Yea, it's pretty easy if you're from Toronto, there's some subtle but dead giveaways that they're Ontarian and not American. Also questions like who is Robbie Williams or where is the washroom will get you the reaction from them to make the call.

Even my SO finds it easier to pick out an Anglo-Canadian in Montreal now after spending some time in Toronto.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by theman23

Honestly, it isn't that hard to pick apart the Ontarians from the Americans when you're in Montreal.

I don't find it that easy at least from the ones who have been in Montreal a long time. They seem to all end up with a similar accent and use French words like the Dep etc.

[niwell]

I've had a bartender in Montreal half jokingly ask if I'm from Toronto after sitting at the bar when there was room open on the terrace on a nice day, though assumedly it was obvious I was anglo as soon as I opened my mouth.

Over here I can usually tell after a short conversation when I'm speaking to an American in a bar (which actually happens with some frequency). Either someone living here for work or a visitor. I wouldn't necessarily be able to spot it immediately, but then again the places I go aren't likely to attract the stereotypical "American tourist".

On occasion I've had someone in the States ask me if I'm Canadian. Usually it's "what State are you from?" though.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Eskimo means 'eater of raw fish'. Not at all a flattering way to label an ethnic group.

The name isn't even from the Inuktitut language and is believe to be from the Innu (also sometimes known as Montagnais) language.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Do you call the Armenians "Hayer" (their native name)? Do you call the Georgians "Kartvelebi"? Thought so.


https://www.france.tv/france-5/c-dans-l-air/6793732-emission-du-mercredi-8-janvier-2025.html

I will call those people those names if they want to be called them.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Eskimo means 'eater of raw fish'. Not at all a flattering way to label an ethnic group.

They don't eat raw fish? Anyway that's pretty standard nowadays. But there is a new theory it has to do with snowshoes. The standard is to let people sort of name themselves now but the problem of course with that is who speaks for them. In Alaska they still go by Eskimo. Inuit is pretty entrenched here. Eskimo is gone even more than Indian. I guess as there isn't 100% consistency as Ajack pointed out it changes every decade or so.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think one can point to a specific colour of government to explain how Quebec has caught up to the ROC economically.

It's a succession of things done by a number of people, going back to Liberal Jean Lesage in the 60s where for example his minister Paul-Gérin Lajoie modernised and beefed up the education system.

Jacques Parizeau and René Lévesque did stuff that paid off in a big way even before they were in the PQ, with the Caisse de dépôt and nationalisation of hydroelectricity, respectively.

Robert Bourassa launched many megaprojects that have paid off, and a lot of our economic development strategy we have in place today and that is going well was the work of Bernard Landry (PQ Premier) and Gérald Tremblay (a Liberal Minister under Bourassa and Daniel Johnson).

The CAQ inherited all of this (which generally takes time, often generations, to pay off dividends) but until last year they also had a pretty good economic development Pierre Fitzgibbon, even if he was a bit shady with some of his dealings.

I agree that Quebec's past governments both PQ and PLQ made many good economic decisions. But the PQ never really made the economy their first priority and it always showed. Things really picked up in Quebec economically once the Charest Liberals won and there wasn't the uncertainty of another referendum happening soon. I will say that one thing I do miss about the PQ days were the much cheaper restaurant, event and hotel prices.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

"Lapon" (in French) is supposed to be offensive (like Eskimo). People prefer to use Sami nowadays, but many French people keep saying "Lapon" and don't know the word "Sami".

Quechua I've never heard it was offensive.

As for "Eskimo", it's known in France that it is offensive (more so than "Lapon"), but not all people know. Many people now use "Inuits" in France (whereas very very few use "Sami"), that's why I was surprised the lady used "Eskimo". It's not so much that is sounds derogatory, it's just that it sounds a bit old-fashioned.

In English it's Lapp. It can be offensive to some but definitely not to all according to my Finnish-Canadian friends. Sámi is the name used today.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Threat or opportunity? I depends the point of view...

I think the end of your comment is more to the point. PQ has become (or was) the Left, pro-redistribution party of Québec, and yes, economically speaking that works less well for growth than more liberal, 'jungle capitalism' parties. So it's probably more to do with liberal economic policies than with sovereignist policies per se. But that being said, some PQ prime ministers have had a good reputation in terms of their economic management (in the late 1990s I remember the French media said the Québécois judged the PQ to be better performing economically-speaking that the other parties, which explained why they kept them in power despite the fact they had lost the referendum).

The French media thought that the PQ was better for the economy?!? That's interesting as at that time most Quebecers certainly didn't think so going by the evidence of the 1998 and then especially of the 2003 provincial elections.

The late 1990s and early 2000s were known for the PQ government making big cuts to the health care system which angered many people.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I will call those people those names if they want to be called them.

Will you spell Montréal and Québec with an accent if the Montréalais and Québécois want it to be spelled that way?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Because Anglo-Canadians are extremely and clearly different from Americans in terms of language, demeanour, attitude, style, etc.

Everyone knows that and can instantly tell the difference, right?

Yes, the differences are noticeable for sure. Sometimes it takes a few minutes depending on the type of encounter but a conversation will show the differences.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

They don't eat raw fish? =

It's apparently an urban legend according to the French sources I'm checking. Eskimo never came from "eating raw fish".

Apparently the most likely etymology is it's a deformation of "Excomminquois" (the "Excommunicated"), a name given to these northern people by the French Jesuits of New France. Excomminquois evolved into Esquimau, and then Eskimo.

So really the name seems to refer to the fact they were pagans who refused the Christian faith and were therefore forbidden (excommunicated) from entering Catholic churches.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The French media thought that the PQ was better for the economy?!? That's interesting as at that time most Quebecers certainly didn't think so going by the evidence of the 1998 and then especially of the 2003 provincial elections.

The French media referred to the polls AFTER the 1995 referendum (say the polls in 1996), when the PQ was very high in the polls despite having lost the referendum, and I clearly remember that they said it was because although the Québécois had rejected independence, they very much liked Lucien Bouchard and the PQ, as Lucien Bouchard was thought of as a very good "gestionnaire". And indeed the PQ won the 1998 elections. At the time the idea was: they can't win an independence referendum, but the Québécois want to keep them in power nonetheless (which would seem odd in a first approach, because there's no point keeping in power a party in favor of independence if you reject independence, but the explanation given by the media was the Québécois thought the PQ was managing Québec better than the Liberals would).

I'm only telling you what the media said back then! The Québec forumers here will confirm.

The PQ declined when Lucien Bouchard retired in 2001. If I remember correctly there was some infighting in the party because some wanted to launch a 3rd referendum, but lots of PQ members were too afraid of a new referendum which they feared they would lose again, and they wanted to concentrate on just the economy, and that infighting and division greatly hurt them. A pro-independence party loses its raison d'être when it's not rooting for independence anymore, and that's what happened to them in the 2000s and 2010s.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I will call those people those names if they want to be called them.

That is a proud statement to make but in order to use the name you need to know it even exists.

There are something like 5000 distinct peoples in the world. Hard to keep track.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That is a proud statement to make but in order to use the name you need to know it even exists.

There are something like 5000 distinct peoples in the world. Hard to keep track.

I will normally ask people or do some research.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The French media referred to the polls AFTER the 1995 referendum (say the polls in 1996), when the PQ was very high in the polls despite having lost the referendum, and I clearly remember that they said it was because although the Québécois had rejected independence, they very much liked Lucien Bouchard and the PQ, as Lucien Bouchard was thought of as a very good "gestionnaire". And indeed the PQ won the 1998 elections. At the time the idea was: they can't win an independence referendum, but the Québécois want to keep them in power nonetheless (which would seem odd in a first approach, because there's no point keeping in power a party in favor of independence if you reject independence, but the explanation given by the media was the Québécois thought the PQ was managing Québec better than the Liberals would).

I'm only telling you what the media said back then! The Québec forumers here will confirm.

The PQ declined when Lucien Bouchard retired in 2001. If I remember correctly there was some infighting in the party because some wanted to launch a 3rd referendum, but lots of PQ members were too afraid of a new referendum which they feared they would lose again, and they wanted to concentrate on just the economy, and that infighting and division greatly hurt them. A pro-independence party loses its raison d'être when it's not rooting for independence anymore, and that's what happened to them in the 2000s and 2010s.

I thought you meant the media from France. I'm assuming you meant French-language media within Canada?

Lucien Bouchard definitely had charisma and was a huge improvement over Jacques Parizeau. But his tenure was really bad for health care in the province. I remember friends in Rouyn-Noranda telling me how bad the hospital was there and was facing more and more cuts and that the hospital in Timmins was so much nicer and up to date even though it had the Harris government cuts to deal with. And friends in Montreal had big time trouble trying to get access to a doctor not because of a doctor shortage but because the system at the time wasn't very patient-friendly.

Bouchard did have federal cabinet experience and was quite intelligent but his popularity did start to wear off as time went on. I remember the 1998 election where the Charest PLQ got more votes than the PQ even though the PQ won about 30 more seats and a majority. Bouchard ended up only running in one general election as party leader and didn't last long as Premier, about 5 years and only a few years after the 1998 victory.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Will you spell Montréal and Québec with an accent if the Montréalais and Québécois want it to be spelled that way?

I always do in French!