Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by niwell

The first is almost certainly true but can't say I've felt the same for the latter. The areas I've spent time in Montreal recently are definitely more francophone than when I hung out in the McGill Ghetto in the early 2000s, but I've never felt unwelcome. If anything I've found that Montrealers I've chatted to in the bars I went to were more interested in what's going on in Toronto than 20 years ago. At least in terms of food/music/bar scene.

when I go back to visit (yearly), I sense that Montreal is more Francophone than it was during my last period of residency (1998-2005). Maybe it is just my perception. the neighbourhoods that I lived in are definitely more Francophone than they were back in my day.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I don't think many French speaking newcomers especially care about how these pro-French, anti-English policies are negatively impacting the lives of Anglophones in Montreal, as I think people are generally self preserving. It's not exactly hard to see how these pro-French, anti-English language polices could benefit French speaking newcomers and their careers in Quebec.

However, I think it's also abundantly clear that the vast majority of French speaking newcomers would not vote in favour of Quebec's secession from Canada. I think most immigrants want to keep the door open to moving elsewhere in Canada one day, regardless of what the PQ may promise in terms of keeping full freedom of mobility with the rest of Canada post indépendance.

All of this is generally true.

I have a number of friends and acquaintances who are immigrants (some of them who already knew French, and others who learned French after arriving here) who say stuff like: "WTF is wrong with Anglo-Quebecers? They've been here for hundreds of years! Why don't they learn French and use it?"

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

They could certainly make an argument to immigrants and even Anglophones. You could make geopolitical argument to Syrian refugees for example though I bet they are reluctant to start any sectarian strife. I bet you could also get some of the progressive Anglophone vote as well. The strategy of ginning up the Francophone vote and insulting the money and ethnics doesn't seem like it works in 2025+.

A slash and burn Conservative government could certainly help with the winning conditions.

I don't think the PQ is going to make specific overtures towards minorities, whether they are anglophones or allophones. Certainly they are totally welcome if they want to join the movement, but they are expected to join and participate in the movement as Quebecers, not as a specific interest group that they would advocate for. (And there are a number of minorities in the movement for sure. Always have been in fact. Not tons but they are there. My kids were born in a hospital that a local PQ member got built, and he himself was born in Haiti).

The PQ for many years attempted specific outreach with ethnic communities and the results were not nil but not really positive either.

Gérald Godin who was a poet and later PQ minister almost made it his life's work, and of course Lucien Bouchard attempted considerable outreach with the anglophone community in particular.

I think the PQ is in the "been there done that" phase when it comes to this.

Not that there will likely be anything like overt "insults".

[New Brisavoine]

French public television (financed by taxpayers) calling the inhabitants of Greenland the "Eskimos" tonight in their more watched news debate program. Your PC-ness hasn't reached these shores yet...

I'll let you know what they say about Canada (since the program tonight is about Trump annexing Greenland, Canada and Panama).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

If Quebec became a sovereign country then Canada could do the exact same thing and impose tariffs, put up barriers to trade, etc..

No, because commercial war between the US and Canada would only mildly affect the US (some inflation), whereas commercial war between rump Canada and the Republic of Québec would devastate the Canadian economy. So it's absolutely not comparable. The rump Canadians may be peeved if Québec seceded, but they wouldn't be suicidal.

Originally Posted by Loco101

Someone posted on here about Quebec's GDP being as high as Ontario's per capita. We have also seen stats where Quebec has had the best performing economy over the last 10-15 years. That would NOT be the case under a PQ majority government.

Address of your crystal ball retailer?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It also feels like being for it now is different than when there is a binary choice so as soon as any actual vote is scheduled you get to 55-45 pretty fast and then you are working on the final 5%.

Exactly. Referendum campaigns have their own dynamics. But Trump's antics (or gruesome policies if he acts on his words) could change the perspective, and not necessarily in favor of the pro-independence camp.

That being said, Trump will lose Congress in less than 2-years' time, and the PQ wouldn't hold the referendum before the US midterm elections anyway.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've spent time in Quebec SÉPAQ parks and the clientele there is very very very white.

I've spent time at Ikea in the suburbs last Saturday, and the clientele was 95% Black. It was shocking.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I'll let you know what they say about Canada (since the program tonight is about Trump annexing Greenland, Canada and Panama).

Ok so here is their first take about the Canada-Trump situation: "To go talk to Trump [as Trudeau did] and try to play it nice with Trump, "please, please, be nice with us, we'll buy your gas", that's exactly what should be not be done! Western liberal democracies such as ours, and that includes Canada, have une seule chance de s'en sortir, and that's to face him united and very strong, and engage in power play in order to strongly push a counter-model [to Trump's ideology]."

A very French comment I shall say! Not sure the other Europeans are as determined and forceful here...

PS: The pundit who's just said that is a woman, not even a man. She's one of the most renowned international reporters in France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Exactly. Referendum campaigns have their own dynamics. But Trump's antics (or gruesome policies if he acts on his words) could change the perspective, and not necessarily in favor of the pro-independence camp.

That being said, Trump will lose Congress in less than 2-years' time, and the PQ wouldn't hold the referendum before the US midterm elections anyway.

Not sure why you think the PQ would consider US midterms in choosing a referendum date.

[MolsonExport]

Ah, endless search for the good ol' "winning conditions"....i.e., those 2-3 periods over scores of years where support for independence temporarily veers near or into majority territory.

Lobsters in a pot, as By Jove Jolly Jacques Parizeau himself once revealingly said.




By Jove Jacques once described referendums as a never-ending visit to the Dentist.


I can't help it. I actually have a lot of respect for JP, despite everything, but he struck me as a London banker cross-bred with a Montreal STM busdriver. Maybe that is why he resonated with so many folk (not as much, though, as the incomparable Rene Levesque)



The legendary Aislin was at his absolute best when he parodied Louise Beaudoin.


Here is a legendary one, just for NB, and hand-signed by the formidable lady herself.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure why you think the PQ would consider US midterms in choosing a referendum date.

I'm not saying they would consider it, I'm saying the logistics of a referendum means it cannot happen before the next US midterm elections, and Donald Trump will probably be a lame duck president by then, so the whole "annexing Canada" thing would not play a role anymore in the referendum campaign.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That being said, Trump will lose Congress in less than 2-years' time, and the PQ wouldn't hold the referendum before the US midterm elections anyway

This assumes that American elections will continue to be free and fair. One sad part is that the millions of moronic Americans who voted for him didn’t know he was planning on attacking their neighbours.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Ok so here is their first take about the Canada-Trump situation: "To go talk to Trump [as Trudeau did] and try to play it nice with Trump, "please, please, be nice with us, we'll buy your gas", that's exactly what should be not be done! Western liberal democracies such as ours, and that includes Canada, have une seule chance de s'en sortir, and that's to face him united and very strong, and engage in power play in order to strongly push a counter-model [to Trump's ideology]."

A very French comment I shall say! Not sure the other Europeans are as determined and forceful here...

PS: The pundit who's just said that is a woman, not even a man. She's one of the most renowned international reporters in France.

As broad a global coalition as possible is the only way to counter Trump. His hubris assumes American invincibility but we are all interdependent on a global level if there is enough unity.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

French public television (financed by taxpayers) calling the inhabitants of Greenland the "Eskimos" tonight in their more watched news debate program. Your PC-ness hasn't reached these shores yet...

I'll let you know what they say about Canada (since the program tonight is about Trump annexing Greenland, Canada and Panama).

It's not PC-ness it's about calling people what they actually are. It just shows ignorance and/or a lack of education some people have when they can't use the proper name.

It amazes me that a TV network would allow use a derogatory name for an ethnic group of people when they have access to the Internet to do quick research and learn what the people are actually called. Do you have a link to the network and show?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

No, because commercial war between the US and Canada would only mildly affect the US (some inflation), whereas commercial war between rump Canada and the Republic of Québec would devastate the Canadian economy. So it's absolutely not comparable. The rump Canadians may be peeved if Québec seceded, but they wouldn't be suicidal.


Address of your crystal ball retailer?

When has Quebec's economy boomed under a PQ government?

[MolsonExport]

Eskimo means 'eater of raw fish'. Not at all a flattering way to label an ethnic group.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Loco101

When has Quebec's economy boomed under a PQ government?

Jamais. I know. I was there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

It's not PC-ness it's about calling people what they actually are. It just shows ignorance and/or a lack of education some people have when they can't use the proper name.

It amazes me that a TV network would allow use a derogatory name for an ethnic group of people when they have access to the Internet to do quick research and learn what the people are actually called. Do you have a link to the network and show?

It's definitely ignorant in the sense of "not knowing".

I am not sure that it's reasonable to expect people around the world to be aware of every single little thing like this - even in the work in a major national newsroom.

As for the Google search option, of course you're right but again I'm fairly world-wise and in a rush working in a fast-paced environment I might not double-check to see if the terms "Quechua" or "Sami" became offensive at some point in the past, without my noticing.

I note that in my lifetime in Canada the name we are supposed to use for the main population of Indigenous people has changed about 4-5 times, so even for the well-intentioned it's sometimes hard to keep track.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

As broad a global coalition as possible is the only way to counter Trump. His hubris assumes American invincibility but we are all interdependent on a global level if there is enough unity.

Problem is, Europe is not united. Most European countries depend too much on the US, and have placed all their eggs in the American basket. Besides, it's also cultural, lots of these countries (particularly in Eastern Europe, but also Northern Europe) really believe the US is a "good guy" that could never harm them, and they are fascinated by the US, consume US culture daily, etc. They are very Americanized. So for them, it's just unthinkable to imagine acting separately or in opposition to the US.

Several prominent French commentators (including the former French ambassador to Washington DC) assume most of the European countries will run to the White House in disorder as soon as Trump enters the White House in order to try and ingratiate themselves with him and have their countries spared.

It's sad really. It's a bit reminiscent of Czech president Hacha visiting Hitler at Berchtesgaden to try and save Prague. Or the right-wing Polish government offering to PAY for a US base in Poland to be called "Fort Trump" back in 2020. I'm glad I live in a country that is not ready to humiliate itself in that way. France, Germany, and the new center-Left Polish government have said their foreign ministers (not president or PM) will visit Washington DC TOGETHER shortly after Trump enters the White House, to present a united front, but they are isolated in Europe.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Problem is, Europe is not united. Most European countries depend too much on the US, and have placed all their eggs in the American basket. Besides, it's also cultural, lots of these countries (particularly in Eastern Europe, but also Northern Europe) really believe the US is a "good guy" that could never harm them, and they are fascinated by the US, consume US culture daily, etc. They are very Americanized. So for them, it's just unthinkable to imagine acting separately or in opposition to the US.

Several prominent French commentators (including the former French ambassador to Washington DC) assume most of the European countries will run to the White House in disorder as soon as Trump enters the White House in order to try and ingratiate themselves with him and have their countries spared.

It's sad really. It's a bit reminiscent of Czech president Hacha visiting Hitler at Berchtesgaden to try and save Prague. Or the right-wing Polish government offering to PAY for a US base in Poland to be called "Fort Trump" back in 2020. I'm glad I live in a country that is not ready to humiliate itself in that way. France, Germany, and the new center-Left Polish government have said their foreign ministers (not president of PM) will visit Washington DC TOGETHER shortly after Trump enters the White House, to present a united front, but they are isolated in Europe.

And even so. One only had to see how Justin Trudeau BFF Emmanuel Macron was hamming for the cameras with Donald Trump at the Notre-Dame re-opening, to see how things are going to go.

Canada is mostly on its own for this one. At least for the foreseeable future.