Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

It's not PC-ness it's about calling people what they actually are. It just shows ignorance and/or a lack of education some people have when they can't use the proper name.

Do you call the Armenians "Hayer" (their native name)? Do you call the Georgians "Kartvelebi"? Thought so.

Originally Posted by Loco101

Do you have a link to the network and show?

https://www.france.tv/france-5/c-dans-l-air/6793732-emission-du-mercredi-8-janvier-2025.html

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

When has Quebec's economy boomed under a PQ government?

Lucien Bouchard had a reputation for being very good in economics.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

When has Quebec's economy boomed under a PQ government?

I don't think one can point to a specific colour of government to explain how Quebec has caught up to the ROC economically.

It's a succession of things done by a number of people, going back to Liberal Jean Lesage in the 60s where for example his minister Paul-Gérin Lajoie modernised and beefed up the education system.

Jacques Parizeau and René Lévesque did stuff that paid off in a big way even before they were in the PQ, with the Caisse de dépôt and nationalisation of hydroelectricity, respectively.

Robert Bourassa launched many megaprojects that have paid off, and a lot of our economic development strategy we have in place today and that is going well was the work of Bernard Landry (PQ Premier) and Gérald Tremblay (a Liberal Minister under Bourassa and Daniel Johnson).

The CAQ inherited all of this (which generally takes time, often generations, to pay off dividends) but until last year they also had a pretty good economic development Pierre Fitzgibbon, even if he was a bit shady with some of his dealings.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As for the Google search option, of course you're right but again I'm fairly world-wise and in a rush working in a fast-paced environment I might not double-check to see if the terms "Quechua" or "Sami" became offensive at some point in the past, without my noticing.

"Lapon" (in French) is supposed to be offensive (like Eskimo). People prefer to use Sami nowadays, but many French people keep saying "Lapon" and don't know the word "Sami".

Quechua I've never heard it was offensive.

As for "Eskimo", it's known in France that it is offensive (more so than "Lapon"), but not all people know. Many people now use "Inuits" in France (whereas very very few use "Sami"), that's why I was surprised the lady used "Eskimo". It's not so much that is sounds derogatory, it's just that it sounds a bit old-fashioned.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And even so. One only had to see how Justin Trudeau BFF Emmanuel Macron was hamming for the cameras with Donald Trump at the Notre-Dame re-opening, to see how things are going to go.

Oh, that's very different. Except for the far-left, everybody in France thought that it was the proper thing to invite Trump (and very clever too), because Trump is very vain, and it's good to establish a good relationship with him. But it's QUITE DIFFERENT from running to Mar-e-Lago and try to appease the guy with sweet words. The consensus here is: play with his vain character, engage and talk with him, but remain strong and do not cave in. Also, inviting is not the same thing as going to see him as a guest. Macron would have been extremely criticized if he had gone to Mar-e-Lago last month, whereas as I've said most people thought it was proper and clever to invite Trump at Notre Dame.

[MolsonExport]

To be clear, it is not unreasonable for someone outside of the immediate environment to be unfamiliar with the changing nomenclature.

[New Brisavoine]

Well, when I talked about European countries playing it disunited, each scrambling to save their own ass, and too Americanized to oppose the US...

https://www.lemonde.fr/international/art...propos-de-donald-trump_6489675_3210.html

A country that used to rule such a huge empire... How much they have fallen. All of that to save their so-called 'special relationship' which exists only in their imagination.

[MolsonExport]

A country that used to rule such a huge empire... How much they have fallen.

Don't insult France like that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

"Lapon" (in French) is supposed to be offensive (like Eskimo). People prefer to use Sami nowadays, but many French people keep saying "Lapon" and don't know the word "Sami".

Quechua I've never heard it was offensive.

As for "Eskimo", it's known in France that it is offensive (more so than "Lapon"), but not all people know. Many people now use "Inuits" in France (whereas very very few use "Sami"), that's why I was surprised the lady used "Eskimo". It's not so much that is sounds derogatory, it's just that it sounds a bit old-fashioned.

See, I knew Lapon was outdated but did not know it was actually offensive. I have no idea either way about Quechua.

My father is in his 80s, and during his lifetime the following terms have all at one time been perfectly fine to refer to the exact same group of people:

Sauvages (French)
Indien (French)
Indian (English)
Native (English)
Amérindien (French)
Aboriginal (English)
Indigenous (English)
Autochtone (French)
First Nations (English)

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Don't insult France like that.

Fake 'special relationship':
https://www.lemonde.fr/international/art...propos-de-donald-trump_6489675_3210.html

Real 'special relationship':
https://x.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/1877129969916096856

It's quite simple really.

It's for things like that that Trump was invited at Notre Dame (although the main reason according to analysts was to organize a meeting with Zelensky at the Elysée to push the Ukrainian case).

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think one can point to a specific colour of government to explain how Quebec has caught up to the ROC economically.

It's a succession of things done by a number of people, going back to Liberal Jean Lesage in the 60s where for example his minister Paul-Gérin Lajoie modernised and beefed up the education system.

Jacques Parizeau and René Lévesque did stuff that paid off in a big way even before they were in the PQ, with the Caisse de dépôt and nationalisation of hydroelectricity, respectively.

Robert Bourassa launched many megaprojects that have paid off, and a lot of our economic development strategy we have in place today and that is going well was the work of Bernard Landry (PQ Premier) and Gérald Tremblay (a Liberal Minister under Bourassa and Daniel Johnson).

The CAQ inherited all of this (which generally takes time, often generations, to pay off dividends) but until last year they also had a pretty good economic development Pierre Fitzgibbon, even if he was a bit shady with some of his dealings.

This is of course true it is possible to do a lot of damage in a few years but making progress takes a slow and steady effort. The long absence of the sovereignty threat has also helped a lot for sure. But the CAQ and Liberal Governments over the past 20 years focussing a bit more on growth and a bit less on redistribution have helped a lot too.

[New Brisavoine]

Marion Van Renterghem, who is French despite her Dutch last name, is a renowned (center-left) journalist who works on international matters in particular. She has made an acclaimed TV documentary about Angela Merkel in particular. Tongue-in-cheek, but still a bit startling coming from her (think Christiane Amanpour or some star pro-Democrat journalist at the New York Times).



Twitter today is awash with people saying we should reclaim Lousiana, or even all of New France.

There's also this comment in reply to Justin Trudeau's tweet "Jamais, au grand jamais, le Canada fera partie des États-Unis."



I think that's how many people feel here.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

2) feeling less and less welcome in Montreal as an Anglophone-Canadian.

Is it because you don't attempt to speak any French while you're in Montreal, and expect to be served in flawless English?

Originally Posted by niwell

The first is almost certainly true but can't say I've felt the same for the latter. The areas I've spent time in Montreal recently are definitely more francophone than when I hung out in the McGill Ghetto in the early 2000s, but I've never felt unwelcome. If anything I've found that Montrealers I've chatted to in the bars I went to were more interested in what's going on in Toronto than 20 years ago. At least in terms of food/music/bar scene.

Yep that's true.. Toronto's happenings is on Montreal's radar these days, even on the sports front (Raptors/Jays).

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Is it because you don't attempt to speak any French while you're in Montreal, and expect to be served in flawless English?




Yep that's true.. Toronto's happenings is on Montreal's radar these days, even on the sports front (Raptors/Jays).

Nobody in Canada expects anybody in Canada to speak "flawless English". We live all our lives among people who do not have Canadian English as their first language. We don't even expect our PMs to speak flawless English. It's all pretty pragmatic.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is of course true it is possible to do a lot of damage in a few years but making progress takes a slow and steady effort. The long absence of the sovereignty threat has also helped a lot for sure. But the CAQ and Liberal Governments over the past 20 years focussing a bit more on growth and a bit less on redistribution have helped a lot too.

Threat or opportunity? I depends the point of view...

I think the end of your comment is more to the point. PQ has become (or was) the Left, pro-redistribution party of Québec, and yes, economically speaking that works less well for growth than more liberal, 'jungle capitalism' parties. So it's probably more to do with liberal economic policies than with sovereignist policies per se. But that being said, some PQ prime ministers have had a good reputation in terms of their economic management (in the late 1990s I remember the French media said the Québécois judged the PQ to be better performing economically-speaking that the other parties, which explained why they kept them in power despite the fact they had lost the referendum).

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Nobody in Canada expects anybody in Canada to speak "flawless English". We live all our lives among people who do not have Canadian English as their first language. We don't even expect our PMs to speak flawless English. It's all pretty pragmatic.

Ideally yes. But in practise it's a bit different. In Montreal, I've seen some tantrums thrown around when certain Anglo-Canadian tourists felt misunderstood by francophone staff.

[New Brisavoine]

I was looking at GDP figures for Canadian provinces in 2024. Based on the GDP forecasts for each province by TD Economics, and the population in 2024 published by Statcan, this should be the real GDP per capita growth in 2024:

- Québec: -1.1%
- ROC: -1.8%

And compared to some provinces:
- Québec: -1.1%
- Ontario: -1.8%
- British Columbia: -1.9%
- Alberta: -2.1%

All provinces in 2024 experienced a real GDP per capita DECLINE (except Nova Scotia), because the population grew faster than the GDP, but Québec had the lowest decline among the larger provinces, and its GDP per capita declined less than the ROC overall.

As a result, in nominal terms the GDP per capita of Québec went from 91.4% of Ontario's in 2023 to 92.1% of Ontario's in 2024. In PPP terms it's already above Ontario as per the study published by Le Devoir the other day.

PS: 1.8% real GDP per capita decline in one year is pretty catastrophic. It's on par with the catastrophic post-Berlin Wall fall years in Eastern Europe.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Ideally yes. But in practise it's a bit different. In Montreal, I've seen some tantrums thrown around when certain Anglo-Canadian tourists felt misunderstood by francophone staff.

How do you know they were Canadians. In any event, "the low" are always among us. One shouldn't extrapolate from their shortcomings.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

How do you know they were Canadians. In any event, "the low" are always among us. One shouldn't extrapolate from their shortcomings.

Because Anglo-Canadians are extremely and clearly different from Americans in terms of language, demeanour, attitude, style, etc.

Everyone knows that and can instantly tell the difference, right?

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

How do you know they were Canadians. In any event, "the low" are always among us. One shouldn't extrapolate from their shortcomings.

If we can't identify ourselves amongst a crowd that'd be an existential identity crisis? Accents, speech, Jays and Raptors caps, etc.