Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Talking of which, how big is Taylor Swift in Québec? There was a documentary about her on French TV last night.

I find the hype around that woman so insane... Her songs are just bland and boring. It's like people have nothing to do with their lives so they need to invent another idol to worship or something.

She's pretty popular here. Not as big as in the anglo world probably but still very very well known.

On her current tour she is not playing Montreal's Olympic Stadium not because she wouldn't fill it, but because it's undergoing renovations. And there is no other venue large enough.

Here is an interview with her from 7 years ago. She was already pretty big back then, but not as huge as today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD4RKeTastg

[New Brisavoine]

In France she's (still) largely unknown, but our journalists certainly like to talk about her to show that they are "in the know", part of a larger "international Anglophone world". I find that so... snobbish!

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's oxymoronic that your viewpoint is that for Montreal to be a truly"bilingual" city that it has to be as French as humanly possible, with English kept out of sight and out of mind, only spoken amongst members of a tightly controlled and rigidly policed historical minority population. A minority only allowed control of their institutions in a grudging manner, and with strict and unsympathetic government oversight, and, with the oversight conducted in the majority language, not the minority language.

It certainly doesn't sound like a happy, thriving and joyous minority situation like the Acadians enjoy in NB.

But, hey, if that is what bilingualism is to you, then fill your boots........

I’m sorry but you’re slightly making it sound like the Quebec anglophones are being subjected to mistreatment or something. Many experts have deemed anglophones in Qc to be the ‘best treated minority in the world’. They don’t have the same status as Acadians, since english is certainly not at risk of disappearing in the long term in Canada, but french is. The forced assimilation of the Acadians by the anglophone community has been going on for centuries and isn’t showing signs of stopping. I can’t also agree with acadians being a happy thriving joyous community as every day is a struggle for the survival of our language and identity.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Driving in a small hamlet on a rural (but national, i.e. a major axis, but not motorway/freeway) road deep in a non-tourist part of Normandy last week, I saw on the side of the road a restaurant with this new commercial name on it: "Bikers & Diners".

If the English steamroller is that strong even in the middle of France, I can only imagine what it must be like in Québec!!



Only a few years ago it was called "L'auberge du Rousset".



The destruction of our culture by Americanization is just mind-boggling. Even the smallest rural areas are not spared now. Interestingly that restaurant is not far from the village where the ancestors of all the Gagnons of North America came from.

This gives me the exact same feeling as seeing French people line up to order at a McDonalds and pay high prices to eat tasteless slop when they have the finest cuisine in the world ( Tho I did notice a couple McDonald’s in Paris who seemed to serve french food ).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Me and my sister would NEVER miss it on Wednesday morning at 11pm (Wednesday is a day off in French schools). My favorite TV cartoon ever!

It's hard for me to pick a single one, though I did like Albator a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s11QkHwGZU4

It had the added bonus that Albator's enemies, the female Sylvidres, were sometimes topless. Not something I was used to seeing on TV after school at 4:30 pm!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What's "international Spanish" anyway? Is "ordenador" international Spanish, or is it "computador"? Is "coche" international Spanish, or is it "carro"?

I would guess that both will be understood, so “international” Spanish would have both words in it. For an analogy, for a car, you have the non-international options “un char” (for us) and “une caisse” (for you), but you have at least two “international French” possibilities (une auto, une voiture). There doesn’t have to be only one.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

I’m sorry but you’re slightly making it sound like the Quebec anglophones are being subjected to mistreatment or something. Many experts have deemed anglophones in Qc to be the ‘best treated minority in the world’. They don’t have the same status as Acadians, since english is certainly not at risk of disappearing in the long term in Canada, but french is. The forced assimilation of the Acadians by the anglophone community has been going on for centuries and isn’t showing signs of stopping. I can’t also agree with acadians being a happy thriving joyous community as every day is a struggle for the survival of our language and identity.

So they are the best treated minority in the world? Not as well as the Acadians so second? Which means Acadians are the best treated minority in the world?

Look just say English bad=oppressors so get what they deserve. It would be more honest.

In a world scale in terms of linguistic minorities both French Canadians in RoC excluding NB and English minority in Quebec are very well treated. But Canada is one of the most pluralistic societies in the world so sometimes we need a higher standard to be met.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's hard for me to pick a single one, though I did like Albator a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s11QkHwGZU4

It had the added bonus that Albator's enemies, the female Sylvidres, were sometimes topless. Not something I was used to seeing on TV after school at 4:30 pm!

I really, really disliked Albator for some reason. But then it was a cartoon that was slightly from before my time.

The cartoon that I loved in primary school (and which was the biggest hit among primary school kids back then) was this one. Don't know if you had it in Québec:

• Video Link

When I was in the beginning of middle high school, it was this show that we loved best with my sister. We were glued in front of TV almost every day watching it (they broadcasted one episode every day from Monday to Friday):

• Video Link

It's funny how children work... at the time I had no idea this was set in the US, as all the characters spoke French. I sort of assumed it must have been in another French city or something.

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

So they are the best treated minority in the world? Not as well as the Acadians so second? Which means Acadians are the best treated minority in the world?

Look just say English bad=oppressors so get what they deserve. It would be more honest.

In a world scale in terms of linguistic minorities both French Canadians in RoC excluding NB and English minority in Quebec are very well treated. But Canada is one of the most pluralistic societies in the world so sometimes we need a higher standard to be met.

I think the best way to view things is to consider Anglo-Quebecers as part of the Anglo-Canadian majority, as opposed to them being a poor little minority in Quebec. Given that Quebec is still part of Canada. This is how the UN re-framed things when it was asked to look into the grievances of Quebec's anglos. The UN said they weren't a minority.

If we accept this, then all French-speaking Canadians, including Québécois francophones are the minority.

As such, it's true we are pretty well treated though not as much as a handful of groups like Swiss francophones or Aaland island Swedish speakers in Finland, who actually do have full autonomy.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In my family there are a number of francophones from these regions of the ROC I am referring to, who have married anglophones.

Just thinking how I don't think that for the anglophone partner, one can honestly say that it's been like marrying someone for a different culture. I don't think the francophone partner really brings much to the couple that they didn't already know, aside maybe from a few different Christmas dishes and traditions. For these family members of mine, the news anchor was Peter Mansbridge, hockey intermissions were with Don Cherry, the newspaper was the Ottawa Citizen, the ultimate in comedy was Saturday Night Live, the greatest band they grew up was The Tragically Hip, New Year's Eve was watching Dick Clark in NYC...

Now, the more culturally francophone side of the family also knows some of these things, and also Harry Potter, Star Wars and James Bond, and Coldplay and Bryan Adams. But hockey night for them was in French, the news anchor was Bernard Derome, New Year's Eve was Le Bye Bye. They knew bands like Les Cowboys Fringants and Les Colocs. True noble comic strips are hardcovers like Tintin and Astérix. They sing the "Et glou et glou et glou" drinking song. Comedy sketches from RBO and François Pérusse are well-known, as are famous quotes from movies like Elvis Gratton, Les Boys and Slap Shot (Québécois version). Many can even imitate Louis de Funès' dance from Rabbi Jacob.

If you start singing "aah-aah-aah-aah-aah" to them they will instantly follow your lead with "Esteban, Zia... Tao... les cités d'Or"...

All of this stuff in the second part of my post is not generally familiar to the anglicized part of the family. Even if they still can speak French. For the moment.

I’ve noticed a stark contrast between Acadians from majority french communities ( like in the north ) and Acadians here in southern New Brunswick who are at minority. I grew up with Astérix, Spirou, Tintin, Lucky Luke, Les cités d’or etc. You name it I knew it. But whenever I ask fellow southern Acadians if they know any of these they say no. The northern Acadians however will say yes. We just live here in such an aggressively anglophone place that’s it’s hard to hold on to our culture. My parents a couple years back had asked if they could get service in french at a Moncton restaurant and the anglophone employee replied to them ‘’No, go back to Dieppe if you want some’’. At my old job, I would greet the clients with ‘’Hello Bonjour!’’ And often got angry looks from anglophones as soon as the word Bonjour left my mouth. I also noticed the downfall of french in a lot of historical small french communities like Shediac or Cocagne where in many commerces you won’t be able to have service in french ( specially Shediac - this must have been the destiny of Shediac as it is the birthplace of chiac ). Basically southern Acadians have been successfully assimilated by an exclusive anglophone majority society when it comes to culture ( all we have left is quinze août and fricot ).


Also might wanna add a little rant about my old job and my manager that disliked Acadians. Had an all-Indian management for a while who never had a problem with me being french ( I was the only Acadian in a team of 30 ). But management was one day replaced by an anglophone Canadian lady. She decided I wasn’t allowed to speak french at work anymore ( but my Indian colleagues could still speak hindi or gujurati to each other ). I had also a tiny Acadian flag stuck to my locker in the employees room which had been there for months with no issue. As soon as this lady got sight of it she threw it right in the trash. I couldn’t stand all this nonsense and ended up finding a better job ( I now have 4 francophone colleagues ! ).
These are few of the many examples I’ve seen in my short life of anti-French sentiment in Canada.
Oh here’s another one. I went to visit hope well rocks with friends and family last summer, and on the bannister on the edge of a cliff it was written ‘’Fuck all Acadians jump off here’’

This is probably the first time I complain about this and you won’t hear many Acadians complain about this since we’re just so used to it, it’s part of our daily lives.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Talking of which, how big is Taylor Swift in Québec? There was a documentary about her on French TV last night.

I find the hype around that woman so insane... Her songs are just bland and boring. It's like people have nothing to do with their lives so they need to invent another idol to worship or something.

Couldn’t be more true. She has a couple good songs, but all that follow are soulless pieces of work. Seems like she’s been 15 years old all her life if you read her lyrics. Yet people adore her like a god.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

This is probably the first time I complain about this and you won’t hear many Acadians complain about this since we’re just so used to it, it’s part of our daily lives.

And yet none of you is asking for a separate province?

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

So they are the best treated minority in the world? Not as well as the Acadians so second? Which means Acadians are the best treated minority in the world?

Look just say English bad=oppressors so get what they deserve. It would be more honest.

In a world scale in terms of linguistic minorities both French Canadians in RoC excluding NB and English minority in Quebec are very well treated. But Canada is one of the most pluralistic societies in the world so sometimes we need a higher standard to be met.

Don’t really understand what you’re trying to say. I never said Acadians were the best treated minority in the world. That would also be far from the truth. Maybe you were replying to the wrong message ?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

I’ve noticed a stark contrast between Acadians from majority french communities ( like in the north ) and Acadians here in southern New Brunswick who are at minority. I grew up with Astérix, Spirou, Tintin, Lucky Luke, Les cités d’or etc. You name it I knew it. But whenever I ask fellow southern Acadians if they know any of these they say no. The northern Acadians however will say yes. We just live here in such an aggressively anglophone place that’s it’s hard to hold on to our culture. My parents a couple years back had asked if they could get service in french at a Moncton restaurant and the anglophone employee replied to them ‘’No, go back to Dieppe if you want some’’. At my old job, I would greet the clients with ‘’Hello Bonjour!’’ And often got angry looks from anglophones as soon as the word Bonjour left my mouth. I also noticed the downfall of french in a lot of historical small french communities like Shediac or Cocagne where in many commerces you won’t be able to have service in french ( specially Shediac - this must have been the destiny of Shediac as it is the birthplace of chiac ). Basically southern Acadians have been successfully assimilated by an exclusive anglophone majority society when it comes to culture ( all we have left is quinze août and fricot ).


Also might wanna add a little rant about my old job and my manager that disliked Acadians. Had an all-Indian management for a while who never had a problem with me being french ( I was the only Acadian in a team of 30 ). But management was one day replaced by an anglophone Canadian lady. She decided I wasn’t allowed to speak french at work anymore ( but my Indian colleagues could still speak hindi or gujurati to each other ). I had also a tiny Acadian flag stuck to my locker in the employees room which had been there for months with no issue. As soon as this lady got sight of it she threw it right in the trash. I couldn’t stand all this nonsense and ended up finding a better job ( I now have 4 francophone colleagues ! ).
These are few of the many examples I’ve seen in my short life of anti-French sentiment in Canada.
Oh here’s another one. I went to visit hope well rocks with friends and family last summer, and on the bannister on the edge of a cliff it was written ‘’Fuck all Acadians jump off here’’

This is probably the first time I complain about this and you won’t hear many Acadians complain about this since we’re just so used to it, it’s part of our daily lives.

I was born in the Maritimes to two Acadian parents and lived part of my life there, but I've been in Quebec for so long I sometimes forget how things can be there. Thanks for sharing. That sucks.

(I also had bosses - in Ontario - who forbade me from speaking French at work. I am probably quite a bit older than you so this was the 1990s.)

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

And yet none of you is asking for a separate province?

Would be impossible. We’re just spread out on too large of a territory.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

Yet people adore her like a god.

I've noticed that. Like I've said, I think it's people with empty lives. No more God, no more political parties, unions, utopia. All that is left is emptiness and consumer goods. So they need to invent something that they can worship. It's silly really.

That said, in the documentary yesterday (of which I watched only a few minutes, about her childhood, I stopped when she became famous), I must say she sang some good songs when she was like 12-14 (one of her songs was actually great, although it was not hers, it's apparently a famous country song, but I couldn't note the name). I was like "uh, why doesn't she sing things like that anymore? that was actually rather good". Also, I think she looked much better when she was a teenager, she looked more natural, and very pretty, whereas now I find her fake in her look, not very attractive, too "polished" and sleek, and I don't like her haircut (her haircut when she was 15 was nice).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I really, really disliked Albator for some reason. But then it was a cartoon that was slightly from before my time.

The cartoon that I loved in primary school (and which was the biggest hit among primary school kids back then) was this one. Don't know if you had it in Québec:

• Video Link

It is not familiar to me but it's possible it was shown in Quebec. I can't find any references to it however.

Fun fact: Japanese mangas actually became popular in Quebec before they became known in the rest of North America. Because Quebec speaks French and we got the mangas from contacts with France.

When I was a kid for a time I lived in a medium-sized Anglo-Canadian city and went to English school. Comics and animation were all DC Comics and Marvel comics from the US. Then I went to visit my very francophone cousins in northern New Brunwick and Québec (in small villages) and they were all in love with Japanese mangas. None of my anglophone classmates in the city had every heard of them at that point.

Another fun fact is that for some reason British progressive rock music gained its first foothold in North America in Quebec. I don't have an explanation for that one, so it's a mystery to me.

[AverageMonctonEnjoyr]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was born in the Maritimes to two Acadian parents and lived part of my life there, but I've been in Quebec for so long I sometimes forget how things can be there. Thanks for sharing. That sucks.

(I also had bosses - in Ontario - who forbade me from speaking French at work. I am probably quite a bit older than you so this was the 1990s.)

Shediac is the birthplace of chiac ( french corrupted by a large amount of english ) because the local factories were all owned by anglophones who used Acadians as cheap labor. These Acadians weren’t allowed to speak french at work and had to live in english all day and this quickly had an impact on the quality of their french. I also heard stories that some bosses wouldn’t even let their employees write their names in French ( Jean Leblanc had to sign his papers as John White ). Chiac is sad since it just feels like butchered french for me but at the same time it’s a good example of our resilience, maybe we can see chiac as a last resort that our people used to not totally lose their french.


Might I also add the KKK was briefly established in New Brunswick and it’s main target was Acadians ? I’ve seen a CBC documentary on this a while ago. We had a very nice traditional french catholic college in Memramcook and the KKK came with their white hoods and torches & burnt in down ( this was roughly a hundred years ago ).

[New Brisavoine]

Actually there goes. The song I was referring too is at 12:35 in the video. I don't know whether the video will play in Canada though. Anyone know that song? I was like, is that her? So different from her songs today, and much better if you ask me. That young girl looked so sweet and cute.

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

Would be impossible. We’re just spread out on too large of a territory.

Correct. It would have to be something like an reverse version of Croatia (look at it on a map),
from the Madawaska in the NW across the top including Restigouche then to the coast with the Péninsule then down to the southeast towards Shediac and Cap-Pelé. Dieppe would be included but not the city of Moncton.

Unlikely for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that this area would be very predominantly francophone but there are still anglo communities here and there that would be caught in the middle.

These guys wanted to do it 40-50 years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parti_acadien