Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In truth few people eat that fake Mexican food here. The big scourge here is McDonald's, which is now present even in the smallest townlet in France, and is often the only "restaurant" present (if you can call that a restaurant). You go to Spain or Italy, and suddenly there are almost no McDonald's visible. Even in the UK, I don't recall seeing that many McDonald's. There's something uniquely French in this obsession with McDonald's. It says something about the collapse of French education since the 1970s.

Not sure if it's still the case but the only time I stepped into a French McDonald's, I was shocked at the prices (and quickly fled). If our overseas cousins actually do pay that much (for that low quality), the profits must be great. Maybe I should consider buying a French McD's franchise and partnering with MolsonEx to have him run it (if it's in Southern France and near the sea, maybe it can work)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Of course. In Mexico "checkar" was very handy (lo voy a checkar), but in Spain nobody understands it, and I'm always uncertain how to say it in Spain's Spanish.

"Verificar" and "comprobar" both work with Mexicans (and Colombians, and Cubans, and Dominicans). I see kwoldtimer beat me to it.

They all have different words for stoves and fridges, depending on which country they're from. That excepted, I find that "international" Spanish works fine with anyone regardless of country of origin.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by AverageMonctonEnjoyr

Currently taking a spanish class. I had learned all the summer beforehand Mexican spanish to prepare myself, but it’s a class on Castellan spanish ( from Spain ) and this has costed me points on my exams. Did not expect that even the verbs would change from a country to another.

Any decent Spanish teacher should be fully aware of those nuances though. Especially the Mexican ones since they're from the largest Spanish-speaking country in the world, with twice as many speakers as Spain itself.

Unless the exams are being corrected automatically by software.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Stockholm syndrome??? Really!!!!



I would think even Acajack would have problems with this (mis)characterization.

Francophone Canadians have full autonomy, and are completely equal to their anglophone brothers in Canada. They are as fully Canadian as any other Canadian is.

Sure there are places in Canada where francophones cannot get service in their own language, but, there are areas in Canada where anglophones have difficulty getting service as well, even here in New Brunswick (a majority anglophone province). There can be a little disharmony at times, but, I doubt that anyone thinks of the relationship between francophone and anglophone Canadians in the manner of a captive race developing an unhealthy fixation with their captors.

give your head a shake man.......

Not sure that francophone Canadians have "full autonomy", but anyway...

I think that generally my view is that most francophone Canadians (85% of whom are Québécois) see things somewhere in between yours and New Brisavoine's.

It's a huge exaggeration to say that most francophones see things like our other friend from Moncton. It's likely a minority view to think of Canadian anglophones as "brothers" and basically the same as us except for the language. I know it exists as it is present in my family amongst francophones who live in areas of the ROC with lots of anglophones. Especially those who have married anglophones and therefore half their family is composed of anglophones. So sure, in this case it's normal to consider anglophones as a part of "us". Of course, this is also a step towards Canadian francophones as an ethnic group comme les autres (similar to Italians and Ukrainians) in an otherwise anglophone country. So not surprising it could be common amogst minority francophones in the ROC, but not shared by Québécois.

But most Québécois (and even my relatives who live in very francophone areas of northern New Brunswick) don't really see things this way. They don't necessarily see anglos as their jailmasters, but there is quite a bit of othering that goes on, ie they are viewed as L'Autre.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure that francophone Canadians have "full autonomy", but anyway...

I think that generally my view is that most francophone Canadians (85% of whom are Québécois) see things somewhere in between yours and New Brisavoine's.

It's a huge exaggeration to say that most francophones see things like our other friend from Moncton. It's likely a minority view to think of Canadian anglophones as "brothers" and basically the same as us except for the language. I know it exists as it is present in my family amongst francophones who live in areas of the ROC with lots of anglophones. Especially those who have married anglophones and therefore half their family is composed of anglophones. So sure, in this case it's normal to consider anglophones as a part of "us". Of course, this is also a step towards Canadian francophones as an ethnic group comme les autres (similar to Italians and Ukrainians) in an otherwise anglophone country. So not surprising it could be common amogst minority francophones in the ROC, but not shared by Québécois.

But most Québécois (and even my relatives who live in very francophone areas of northern New Brunswick) don't really see things this way. They don't necessarily see anglos as their jailmasters, but there is quite a bit of othering that goes on, ie they are viewed as L'Autre.

This is a reasonable response. Northern NBers are a different breed than the ones here in southeastern NB. They are the majority up there (especially on the Peninsule), and don't interact with their anglophone brethren nearly as much as they do down here. I can see them viewing us as les autres. Here in the southeast, the distribution is more like 60% anglo, 40% franco (as a broad region). Interactions occur on a daily basis. We work together, play together, and intermarry quite frequently. Not only are they our neighbours, but our relatives too. They are quite literally our brothers. In my department at the hospital, I am sure that 50% (if not more) of the staff is Acadian. We all get along very well.

No Stockholm syndrome here........

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

This is a reasonable response. Northern NBers are a different breed than the ones here in southeastern NB. They are the majority up there (especially on the Peninsule), and don't interact with their anglophone brethren nearly as much as they do down here. I can see them viewing us as les autres. Here in the southeast, the distribution is more like 60% anglo, 40% franco (as a broad region). Interactions occur on a daily basis. We work together, play together, and intermarry quite frequently. Not only are they our neighbours, but our relatives too. They are quite literally our brothers. In my department at the hospital, I am sure that 50% (if not more) of the staff is Acadian. We all get along very well.

No Stockholm syndrome here........

Another important factor is that francophones in SE NB and also Franco-Ontarians are also way less likely to consume culture in French like music, movies, TV, books, etc. than their brethren in North NB and of course Québécois too.

In that sense, people in SE NB or Ottawa even if they are technically francophones and send their kids to French school, are much more likely to have the same music, the same TV shows, the same celebrities, as their anglophone neighbours. And less unique francophone reference markers to distinguish them from them.

So yeah, they can probably often seem to be "the same people".

[Acajack]

In my family there are a number of francophones from these regions of the ROC I am referring to, who have married anglophones.

Just thinking how I don't think that for the anglophone partner, one can honestly say that it's been like marrying someone for a different culture. I don't think the francophone partner really brings much to the couple that they didn't already know, aside maybe from a few different Christmas dishes and traditions. For these family members of mine, the news anchor was Peter Mansbridge, hockey intermissions were with Don Cherry, the newspaper was the Ottawa Citizen, the ultimate in comedy was Saturday Night Live, the greatest band they grew up was The Tragically Hip, New Year's Eve was watching Dick Clark in NYC...

Now, the more culturally francophone side of the family also knows some of these things, and also Harry Potter, Star Wars and James Bond, and Coldplay and Bryan Adams. But hockey night for them was in French, the news anchor was Bernard Derome, New Year's Eve was Le Bye Bye. They knew bands like Les Cowboys Fringants and Les Colocs. True noble comic strips are hardcovers like Tintin and Astérix. They sing the "Et glou et glou et glou" drinking song. Comedy sketches from RBO and François Pérusse are well-known, as are famous quotes from movies like Elvis Gratton, Les Boys and Slap Shot (Québécois version). Many can even imitate Louis de Funès' dance from Rabbi Jacob.

If you start singing "aah-aah-aah-aah-aah" to them they will instantly follow your lead with "Esteban, Zia... Tao... les cités d'Or"...

All of this stuff in the second part of my post is not generally familiar to the anglicized part of the family. Even if they still can speak French. For the moment.

[Acajack]

La la la la!

La la la la!

Sourissimo!

https://www.ina.fr/ina-eclaire-actu/video/i09183082/generique-debut-de-sourissimo

[Acajack]

Le pudding à l'arsenic
Nous permet ce pronostic
Demain sur les bords du Nil
Que mangeront les crocodiles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRzzOz6toSg

[Acajack]

Le plus petit, mais le plus fort!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuKyrr4Dp3s

[Acajack]

Que le Diable nous emporte, on n'a rien trouvé de mieux.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J2bopu5gh0

[MonctonRad]

Acadians in the SE are definitely partially acculturated to mainstream North America, especially in popular media and the movies but the community is strong here, backed up by the university and the local arts community. The Quinze Aout is proudly celebrated. About half the programming at the Capitol Theatre is in French. In addition, the francophone community has their own community theatre (Theatre l'Escouette (please forgive if there is a spelling mistake), and, local pubs often showcase popular French acts. In many ways they have the best of both worlds.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Acadians in the SE are definitely partially acculturated to mainstream North America, especially in popular media and the movies but the community is strong here, backed up by the university and the local arts community. The Quinze Aout is proudly celebrated. About half the programming at the Capitol Theatre is in French. In addition, the francophone community has their own community theatre (Theatre l'Escouette (please forgive if there is a spelling mistake), and, local pubs often showcase popular French acts. In many ways they have the best of both worlds.

Since I know both communities fairly well, it's definitely better in Moncton and environs than Ottawa and environs, for example. With that I'd agree.

Though Ottawa does have a pretty good array of francophone cultural institutions and activities - even without counting those available across the river in Gatineau. Note however that most of the francophone stuff in Ottawa gets a lot of its patronage from people who live in Gatineau. (Some of whom may be originally from Ottawa and Ontario but moved to Quebec it's true.)

The Shenkman Arts Centre in the east end Ottawa suburb of Orleans (Orléans) has a pretty good offering in terms of music and theatre in French. Though check out the licence plates in the parking lot. You can easily tell when it's a francophone event by where the cars come from. (It's about a half-hour drive from Gatineau.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Acadians in the SE are definitely partially acculturated to mainstream North America, especially in popular media and the movies but the community is strong here, backed up by the university and the local arts community. The Quinze Aout is proudly celebrated. About half the programming at the Capitol Theatre is in French. In addition, the francophone community has their own community theatre (Theatre l'Escouette (please forgive if there is a spelling mistake), and, local pubs often showcase popular French acts. In many ways they have the best of both worlds.

I've been told this many times but not sure it's that true, as it assumes that people who are culturally francophone (as those in northern NB and Quebec are) are cut off from anglo culture and culture from the rest of the world.

I have as a point of comparison my own kids and their cousins, all of whom live in Ontario, went to French schools but are very anglicized.

There isn't much at all from the anglo world that my kids aren't familiar with, whereas there is a whole bunch of stuff from the francophone world that my kids know but that their cousins have never heard of.

And whereas anglo culture tends to be so ubiquitous that it's a steamroller that squeezes everything else out (with the exception of an occasional Despacito), Quebec is a lot more open to music in other languages like Spanish, Italian and Portuguese.

I wouldn't be surprised if my nephews and nieces barely have a single song on their playlists, out of hundreds or thousands, that isn't in English.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

They all have different words for stoves and fridges, depending on which country they're from. That excepted, I find that "international" Spanish works fine with anyone regardless of country of origin.

What's "international Spanish" anyway? Is "ordenador" international Spanish, or is it "computador"? Is "coche" international Spanish, or is it "carro"?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Not sure if it's still the case but the only time I stepped into a French McDonald's, I was shocked at the prices (and quickly fled). If our overseas cousins actually do pay that much (for that low quality), the profits must be great. Maybe I should consider buying a French McD's franchise and partnering with MolsonEx to have him run it (if it's in Southern France and near the sea, maybe it can work)

Supposedly the quality of food in a French McDonald's is far better (better meat, etc). At least that's what they claim! I've never eaten in a McDonald's in the US, so I couldn't say.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What's "international Spanish" anyway? Is "ordenador" international Spanish, or is it "computador"? Is "coche" international Spanish, or is it "carro"?

Good question. I don't think it exists in the same sense that "français international" arguably exists for French.

There are too many countries that use it and therefore variants of it and some of them are larger or as large as Spain.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In that sense, people in SE NB or Ottawa even if they are technically francophones and send their kids to French school, are much more likely to have the same music, the same TV shows, the same celebrities, as their anglophone neighbours. And less unique francophone reference markers to distinguish them from them.

Talking of which, how big is Taylor Swift in Québec? There was a documentary about her on French TV last night.

I find the hype around that woman so insane... Her songs are just bland and boring. It's like people have nothing to do with their lives so they need to invent another idol to worship or something.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

They sing the "Et glou et glou et glou" drinking song.

Seriously?

Originally Posted by Acajack

If you start singing "aah-aah-aah-aah-aah" to them they will instantly follow your lead with "Esteban, Zia... Tao... les cités d'Or"...

Me and my sister would NEVER miss it on Wednesday morning at 11pm (Wednesday is a day off in French schools). My favorite TV cartoon ever!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Seriously?

Yup. Sometimes. I mean, everyone knows it. Not every time you go out but it's definitely not uncommon.

You're more likely to hear it in certain types of bars with live music (brasseries, boîtes à chansons) when it's someone's birthday and they bring them up on stage with a drink.