Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by niwell

One of the big comments from my British relatives (this goes for Australian ones / friends from South Africa as well) is how warm it is inside houses during winter here. No matter how cold it gets outside. British housing tends to run damp and drafty, making for a somewhat miserable experience when it's cold out. Apparently the worst housing quality in Western Europe, though I'm not sure what metrics that's based on. A lot easier to appreciate winter when you can go inside to warm up with relative ease.

Anything pre-1980 in the UK seems pretty poorly insulated, by our standards. The older they are, the worse it gets. The really old stuff is wonderful to look at, but difficult to heat.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, people have a tendency to see everything negatively here. The French are always very negative. Plus we have super strong far-left parties doing their best to make us feel guilty, plus our public TV and radios have non-stop programs about the catastrophe of climate change.

Talking of which, I've just seen this. From the chief foreign affairs commentator at the Financial Times.



Unfortunately, it's not the same here. I was counting on some warm autumn with global warming to compensate for the rather coolish and soggy summer we've had, but the autumn has been pretty disappointing here, and the past few days noticeably colder and very gray.

I don't know if we can still have a day above 20 C in November. Doesn't seem likely in the next 2 weeks. And by late November it will be game over.

[big T]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The anglophone community has already considerably transitioned away from its British roots, as evidenced for example by the people who run Montreal's English school board:

https://www.emsb.qc.ca/emsb/about/governance/commissioners

I don't think there is a true British Isles surname amongst all of the commissioners there. It's very predominantly Italian and Ashkenazi Jewish.

It's ironic that in Quebec the true descendants of the original anglo community are probably divided in three, with one third still in the province and still part of the anglophone community, one third living outside Quebec (mostly in the ROC with some in the US) and one third seamlessly assimilated into the francophone majority.

Yet the community continues to grow demographically due to the assimilation of newcomers of all origins to the anglophone sphere, and tomorrow's torchbearers for "historic English" in Montreal will be that Vietnamese kid you mention, plus Palestinians, Brazilians, Romanians, etc.

It's as if a Polish dude moved to Winnipeg, noted that there is lots of Franco-Manitoban history in the province and in parts of the city like Saint-Boniface, learned French instead of English and started getting all aggressive about French and calling anglophone Winnipeggers racists and shitheads. Now multiply that by a couple hundred thousand.

Absolutely, and my point was that this current makeup of what we'll agree to call "Montreal's historic anglo community" as seen in the EMSB dates back to a time where Quebec had not asserted its current French form - not to the extent it did since the quiet revolution anyway.

Hence the "historic" part; folks arriving now are immigrants to a French Quebec, like it or not. So consciously deciding to come here and not integrate into francophone majority culture is quite deliberate at this point. Expecting the people of Quebec to accept that has nothing to do with respect for a historic community established long ago in a very different political and social context, and everything to do with perpetuating that political and social context which was rejected decades ago. It's seen as confrontational because it is. (and, maybe these anglo-oriented immigrants in Qc are misled rather than ill-intentioned, but then you'd have to look at the federal policies that support that)

Molson speaks of feeling unwelcome in his own city, and I hope most reasonable people would agree that this is an unfortunate side effect of tensions building because of what I wrote above. But I don't think you have to hate Anglo-Montrealers to want Montreal to be French going forward.

I also think opinion polls can be deceiving, like when you see a lot of support or fondness for Montreal as a bilingual entity -- that's all great and if I'm honest I quite like that too, but we'd do well to remember that bilingual life is a luxury afforded by having a strong French majority. The opposite wouldn't last a generation.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Montreal would not be the metropolis of all of Canada unless it was a legitimate bilingual city. At one time, this was it's destiny, but, the PQ, Bill 101 and a couple of referenda put an end to that.

Which is too bad, because I think Montreal is a more interesting city than Toronto. It would have done well as the NYC of Canada.

Bilingual the Canadian way, meaning English...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big T

Absolutely, and my point was that this current makeup of what we'll agree to call "Montreal's historic anglo community" as seen in the EMSB dates back to a time where Quebec had not asserted its current French form - not to the extent it did since the quiet revolution anyway.

Hence the "historic" part; folks arriving now are immigrants to a French Quebec, like it or not. So consciously deciding to come here and not integrate into francophone majority culture is quite deliberate at this point. Expecting the people of Quebec to accept that has nothing to do with respect for a historic community established long ago in a very different political and social context, and everything to do with perpetuating that political and social context which was rejected decades ago. It's seen as confrontational because it is. (and, maybe these anglo-oriented immigrants in Qc are misled rather than ill-intentioned, but then you'd have to look at the federal policies that support that)

Molson speaks of feeling unwelcome in his own city, and I hope most reasonable people would agree that this is an unfortunate side effect of tensions building because of what I wrote above. But I don't think you have to hate Anglo-Montrealers to want Montreal to be French going forward.

I also think opinion polls can be deceiving, like when you see a lot of support or fondness for Montreal as a bilingual entity -- that's all great and if I'm honest I quite like that too, but we'd do well to remember that bilingual life is a luxury afforded by having a strong French majority. The opposite wouldn't last a generation.

Yes it’s ironic that Bill 101 actually preserved a bilingual Montreal when it’s so roundly denounced as having destroyed it. A Montreal where the minority of anglophones only speak English and the majority francophones all have to speak English when spoken to isn’t a bilingual. It’s just a city in transition towards becoming English only for everyone.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes it’s ironic that Bill 101 actually preserved a bilingual Montreal when it’s so roundly denounced as having destroyed it. A Montreal where the minority of anglophones only speak English and the majority francophones all have to speak English when spoken to isn’t a bilingual. It’s just a city in transition towards becoming English only for everyone.

An historical reality, a modern mystery.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes it’s ironic that Bill 101 actually preserved a bilingual Montreal when it’s so roundly denounced as having destroyed it. A Montreal where the minority of anglophones only speak English and the majority francophones all have to speak English when spoken to isn’t a bilingual. It’s just a city in transition towards becoming English only for everyone.

It's oxymoronic that your viewpoint is that for Montreal to be a truly"bilingual" city that it has to be as French as humanly possible, with English kept out of sight and out of mind, only spoken amongst members of a tightly controlled and rigidly policed historical minority population. A minority only allowed control of their institutions in a grudging manner, and with strict and unsympathetic government oversight, and, with the oversight conducted in the majority language, not the minority language.

It certainly doesn't sound like a happy, thriving and joyous minority situation like the Acadians enjoy in NB.

But, hey, if that is what bilingualism is to you, then fill your boots........

[big T]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's oxymoronic that your viewpoint is that for Montreal to be a truly"bilingual" city that it has to be as French as humanly possible, with English kept out of sight and out of mind, only spoken amongst members of a tightly controlled and rigidly policed historical minority population. A minority only allowed control of their institutions in a grudging manner, and with strict and unsympathetic government oversight, and, with the oversight conducted in the majority language, not the minority language.

It certainly doesn't sound like a happy, thriving and joyous minority situation like the Acadians enjoy in NB.

But, hey, if that is what bilingualism is to you, then fill your boots........

The grudge and rigid policing is certainly neither necessary nor desirable, but in practical terms it is hard to avoid entirely. We call it a delicate balance for a reason.

Putting things in those terms is a bit disingenuous though. It is also interesting that anglophones, who are in the average more accepting of "equity is not equality" in other areas, would be blind to the fact that on-the-ground equality for French and English in Montreal would quickly result in an English only public realm.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Bilingual the Canadian way, meaning English...

Salt, wound, etc.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A Montreal where the minority of anglophones only speak English and the majority francophones all have to speak English when spoken to isn’t a bilingual. It’s just a city in transition towards becoming English only for everyone.

New Orleans circa 1850.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by big T

The grudge and rigid policing is certainly neither necessary nor desirable, but in practical terms it is hard to avoid entirely. We call it a delicate balance for a reason.

Putting things in those terms is a bit disingenuous though. It is also interesting that anglophones, who are in the average more accepting of "equity is not equality" in other areas, would be blind to the fact that on-the-ground equality for French and English in Montreal would quickly result in an English only public realm.

You are quite right. Equity is not the same thing as equality. The anglophone population should not expect equality, but, equity can be a slippery slope. Equity is a somewhat subjective concept, open to interpretation. A hard line interpretation could allow for repression and suppression of a minority. I believe this is what is going on now.

In order to achieve his goals, Leqeault is creating an environment where anglophones feel excluded and unwelcome, even if their ancestry in the province goes back nearly 250 years. It is pretty clear Legeault wants the eventual extirpation of the anglophone community in Quebec.

I would imagine reasonable anglophones in the province simply want to live in communities where their presence is valued. Communities where they are able to control (or at least have reasonable input) in their own educational and health care institutions. Communities where they can operate their own small businesses in their own language if they so choose. Communities that are thriving, and not gradually vanishing before their eyes.

There are not many places in Quebec where this is possible any more. Really, the only options left are in the west island suburbs of Montreal. Most other places, even in the Outouais and the townships are now lost causes. Legeault seeks to remove the last bastions.

Thinking anglophones realize that they need to know French to participate more fully in general Quebec society. This is a given, but, they feel their linguistic community has value and should remain distinct from the broader community, and should have opportunities to thrive and grow. Legeault on the other hand prefers extirpation, annihilation and assimilation.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by big T

The grudge and rigid policing is certainly neither necessary nor desirable, but in practical terms it is hard to avoid entirely. We call it a delicate balance for a reason.

Driving in a small hamlet on a rural (but national, i.e. a major axis, but not motorway/freeway) road deep in a non-tourist part of Normandy last week, I saw on the side of the road a restaurant with this new commercial name on it: "Bikers & Diners".

If the English steamroller is that strong even in the middle of France, I can only imagine what it must be like in Québec!!



Only a few years ago it was called "L'auberge du Rousset".



The destruction of our culture by Americanization is just mind-boggling. Even the smallest rural areas are not spared now. Interestingly that restaurant is not far from the village where the ancestors of all the Gagnons of North America came from.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It is pretty clear Legeault wants the eventual extirpation of the anglophone community in Quebec.

Legault wants his "maintien indéfini au pouvoir". You don't have to look much further than that. This guy is not an ideologue. He's an opportunist. He'll say "Vive le Québec libre" if that's what people want to hear, and "Vive le Canada uni" if that's rather what people want to hear.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by big T

Putting things in those terms is a bit disingenuous though. It is also interesting that anglophones, who are in the average more accepting of "equity is not equality" in other areas, would be blind to the fact that on-the-ground equality for French and English in Montreal would quickly result in an English only public realm.

You're definitely not wrong on this one. It's one of the more glaring examples of hypocrisy among Anglo-Canadian progressives.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It is pretty clear Legeault wants the eventual extirpation of the anglophone community in Quebec.

No it is not what he wants, nor is it what Québec wants. What we want is for immigrants to integrate in the French speaking population. If they chose to come to Québec, they should do it because they want to be in Québec, a French speaking society. They are not here to recreate a small impermeable pocket of their former country, and if they want to integrate in English they can do it in the rest of North America, whether in the United States or in America Light (i.e. Canada).

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's oxymoronic that your viewpoint is that for Montreal to be a truly"bilingual" city that it has to be as French as humanly possible, with English kept out of sight and out of mind, only spoken amongst members of a tightly controlled and rigidly policed historical minority population. A minority only allowed control of their institutions in a grudging manner, and with strict and unsympathetic government oversight, and, with the oversight conducted in the majority language, not the minority language.

It certainly doesn't sound like a happy, thriving and joyous minority situation like the Acadians enjoy in NB.

But, hey, if that is what bilingualism is to you, then fill your boots........

The English universities in Québec are more well financed per students than the French ones, there are many English speaking hospitals in Montréal, and it is more difficult to receive services in French there that it is to receive services in English in French speaking hospitals. The Anglophone community has access to radios, TV and written media aplenty, and not only exported from The ROC or the United States, but locally produced. Something like 45 % of people in Québec are bilingual (French-English), 40 % of Francophones can speak English. What is that percentage in New Brunswick Anglophones can speak French (how was Blaine Higgs French, BTW?)? What is that percentage in the ROC? That percentage of people speaking English is even higher in Montréal, there is no shortage of services in English here. It is more difficult to be served in French. Yes, we want the image on Montréal to be French, but that doesn't mean the Anglophones are oppressed (BTW, they are the ones who massively vote for your friend Trudeau here... Just sayin').

In theory, in the ROC Francophones have has many rights as Anglophones to receive services in their language, but in practice it is far from true. In Québec, theoretical rights are lower, but in practice they are mostly met, if not
exceeded.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In fact the French population is so sick and tired with the state of the country now (major shootout involving 500 drug dealers in fucking Poitiers last night if you haven't read the news... I mean mid-sized, until recently super-quite POITIERS for Christ's sake!!), I can easily see 10 million French people happily moving to a Francophone version of California.moving.

The Canadian experience is more and more talked about here.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The Canadian experience is more and more talked about here.

Interestingly, despite the fact that Quebec is generally a lot more liberal on "vices" (gambling, sex, alcohol, etc.) than Anglo-Canada is, Quebec was actually the province most hesitant to legalize cannabis.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Interestingly, despite the fact that Quebec is generally a lot more liberal on "vices" (gambling, sex, alcohol, etc.) than Anglo-Canada is, Quebec was actually the province most hesitant to legalize cannabis.

There has always been something a bit puritan regarding drugs among the French. In this area as in many other, the Québécois share something with the French despite more than 250 years of separation (you can see it too in the approach to Islam, the veil). I don't know why it's just impossible to talk about the legalization of cannabis in France. We're as puritan as the Americans during the alcohol prohibition, with the same awful consequences! And yet the French population is the largest consumer of cannabis in Europe. So it's a complete failure in all respects.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The destruction of our culture by Americanization is just mind-boggling. Even the smallest rural areas are not spared now.

It may end up boring if they did too much of it, but I'm not sure we should really be concerned.
It might just be some cyclic temporary trend like fashion or first names. You know, there was a time when we had tons of Kevins, then loads of Ilans and Mattéos. Now it seems they're going back to more traditional French names like Jules or Louis that I find oddly old-fashioned, but that's the trend anyway.
It might just be the same in case of restaurants. I wouldn't be surprised if the French got tired of large American fast food franchises someday in a near future, while they thrive over here at the moment.