Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[KincLosddy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And it's not your fault that the Valley based the last seven decades' worth of transportation/city planning on those two highways solving everything forever.

By the same token though, it's not TransLink's fault that the Valley is now heavily car-dependent, allergic to transit and walkability (and the kind of planning that encourages those), and aside from Mission, unwilling to even pay for more bus/train service while they simultaneously demand it.

Cool. We in Vancouver see your 5-8k and raise you 36-37k.
I'll say it again: the WCE gets 5.3k riders/day. The interurban is pegged at 3.9k/day. The 502 from Surrey to Langley has 5.6k/day, which is about to balloon to 56k+ That's the baseline we're dealing with.
Insisting the entire province pay for a train that performs worse than a bus because it's "what you're owed" is not realistic. You're not the only people in the province. Everybody's stuck in traffic.

You want to increase transit in the Valley to justify a train? Alright. First do what Vancouver did and fix the crappy Flying Spaghetti Monster bus networks (over 70% of drivers in Mission stay in Mission, and that number's even higher for Abbotsford and Chilliwack, so commuter rail won't fix that), start building up lowrises and midrises along the buses, and then run more frequent express service between the cities and to Metro Vancouver; the current TCH expansion is adding bus lanes, so no getting stuck in traffic.
If Ottawa one day feels generous and decides to blow $28 billion on trains in BC (the cost of one single subway in Ontario), go ahead and have your WCE expansion; until then, we all have to earn our turns instead.

I didn't say it's what we are owed. I said we are looking for something, anything better than what we have. Once again saying the need for transit is universal. The problem is there is no major improvement outside of Metro Vancouver these days. I am as pragmatic and social democratic as you can get. It's obvious Vancouver is seeing bigger growth than everyone else. One does not need to toot that horn because the other couple million people in the province already know that (once again, focus of funding). I would say we expect at least a reasonable percentage of investment... Not nothing for half a century. I think that is not unreasonable.

Unfortunately our local economy is being damaged by the lack of major infrastructure investment as shipping for farming is impacted harsh by congestion. I work in the industry and it's rough. Abbotsford and Chilliwack are especially impacted by this and even our best investment has not been speedy or of a scale that will improve things.

Chicken and egg situation on top of that. People out here are not going to use our abysmal system, and the government won't improve it because no one uses it. Unfortunately.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by KincLosddy

Chicken and egg situation on top of that. People out here are not going to use our abysmal system, and the government won't improve it because no one uses it. Unfortunately.

Right, so for now, focus on what you can change.

• The local buses are — and infrequent; get more frequency on more efficient routes for the 3/4ths of Valley residents who commute within their own cities, and to feed a train.
• The Valley cities are sprawly and unconducive to not-driving; start zoning for townhomes, small towers and retail villages along the main arterials and form hubs for a train to connect to.
• The FVX can and should come more often than every 30-60 minutes; get it up to articulated buses every 8-15 minutes (the province is already working on bus lanes on the TCH, so no traffic) to provide an example of how many riders a train might attract.

You ask for a train right now, the province will laugh in your face. You build up transit and density so that the train will actually be full (instead of just hopefully full), the province might sit up and listen. Broadway and Surrey would never have justified SkyTrains if the buses were empty and no towers were promised.

Also start badgering Ottawa, because politically, BC is Eastern Canada's Fraser Valley at the moment.

[KincLosddy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Right, so for now, focus on what you can change.

• The local buses are — and infrequent; get more frequency on more efficient routes for the 3/4ths of Valley residents who commute within their own cities, and to feed a train.
• The Valley cities are sprawly and unconducive to not-driving; start zoning for townhomes, small towers and retail villages along the main arterials and form hubs for a train to connect to.
• The FVX can and should come more often than every 30-60 minutes; get it up to articulated buses every 8-15 minutes (the province is already working on bus lanes on the TCH, so no traffic) to provide an example of how many riders a train might attract.

You ask for a train right now, the province will laugh in your face. You build up transit and density so that the train will actually be full (instead of just hopefully full), the province might sit up and listen. Broadway and Surrey would never have justified SkyTrains if the buses were empty and no towers were promised.

Also start badgering Ottawa, because politically, BC is Eastern Canada's Fraser Valley at the moment.

I agree wholeheartedly. I am just afraid that losing the WCE will be the best ammunition against major transit investment in the future.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Think about it like Vancouver losing its streetcars - transit isn't going backward or forward with a cancellation, just sideways.

[BaddieB]

In my opinion, it is really important that we rapidly build out transit in Surrey and Langley because it is cheaper to do it now than later, and that it will shape development in the area to be more urban and less suburban. Stuff is getting built out there whether we like it or not (I do not), so I'd rather it be built around transit than around the car.

[jollyburger]

Missed this but a train in the Thorton Tunnel was spewing out black smoke a few weeks ago



https://www.burnabynow.com/local-news/tr...hes-black-smoke-in-north-burnaby-9535725

[chowhou]

At this point it's all just election fluff, but I noticed two very interesting paragraphs on the BC NDP platform they posted today:

https://www.bcndp.ca/actionplan#pillar6

Connecting communities in the Fraser Valley
Expand the West Coast Express to Chilliwack | A new rail service through the Valley | Move forward with the next leg of the Fraser Valley Highway 1 Corridor Improvement project, widening the highway out to Chilliwack, including climate resiliency to prevent flooding.

Exploring the viability of bringing commuter rail back to key routes
We’ll develop a business plan to evaluate commuter rail options, including Vancouver to Squamish, Whistler and Pemberton to help address crowding and traffic in this fast-growing corridor.

[Bobert]

The first one is a no-brainer. As the lines between the Fraser Valley and Vancouver blur, its better to put the funds towards this now, than later.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Bobert

The first one is a no-brainer. As the lines between the Fraser Valley and Vancouver blur, its better to put the funds towards this now, than later.

And it was studied not too long ago corerct?

[mcj]

Will be interesting to see how this affects Mission City Station. The access to the Mission Train bridge would require quite a bit of manoeuvring for a train to serve both Mission City in its current location and then head over to Chilliwack. It might make sense for the station to be relocated westward a bit and orient the platform to be on the south side of the tracks so the train wouldn't need to double back and go over 3 switches to get on the bridge.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by mcj

Will be interesting to see how this affects Mission City Station. The access to the Mission Train bridge would require quite a bit of manoeuvring for a train to serve both Mission City in its current location and then head over to Chilliwack. It might make sense for the station to be relocated westward a bit and orient the platform to be on the south side of the tracks so the train wouldn't need to double back and go over 3 switches to get on the bridge.

Luckily the WCE trains are designed to travel in both directions; There's nothing stopping them from adding an additional switch east of Mission City to reverse and swap over between the north and south tracks for taking the rail bridge. The existing WCE railyard is to the east of Mission City Station anyway, so if trains are to travel from there to Chiliwack in the morning that switch would be necessary anyway.

[ahdede]

Originally Posted by mcj

Will be interesting to see how this affects Mission City Station. The access to the Mission Train bridge would require quite a bit of manoeuvring for a train to serve both Mission City in its current location and then head over to Chilliwack. It might make sense for the station to be relocated westward a bit and orient the platform to be on the south side of the tracks so the train wouldn't need to double back and go over 3 switches to get on the bridge.

Originally Posted by chowhou

Luckily the WCE trains are designed to travel in both directions; There's nothing stopping them from adding an additional switch east of Mission City to reverse and swap over between the north and south tracks for taking the rail bridge. The existing WCE railyard is to the east of Mission City Station anyway, so if trains are to travel from there to Chiliwack in the morning that switch would be necessary anyway.

The 2021 preliminary study looked into this exact issue.

It is noted in the study that the Mission Rail Bridge is already highly used for freight train crossings, with an average of 31 crossings per day in 2026, and the expectation is that this figure will increase to over 50 crossings per day by 2030.

Currently, Mission City Station is located on the east side of the rail bridge to directly serve Mission’s downtown area. In order to achieve a route extension, this station could be relocated to the east of the rail bridge at a greater cost, but impact land uses in the emerging city centre area. Alternatively, trains could reverse from the existing station onto the bridge and into Abbotsford.

Platform relocation option


Reversing train option


Interesting that the NDP commitment (pg 55) explicitly states

Connecting communities in the Fraser Valley through a new rail service, working jointly with CP Rail.

While the Mission to downtown Abbotsford portion is under CP, the route the study looked at from Abbotsford to Chilliwack is what the old interurban ran on, and is now under SRY. Surely any new service would not run on this meandering route right?

Alternatively the train could run Mission to Chilliwack via the CN line just after the Mission Rail bridge but this would leave out downtown Abbotsford. It would also involve negotiating with CN which since the NDP didn't explicitly state leads me to concluding this is not a consideration.

[mattropolis]

Another option is to build a new passenger only rail bridge to the east. It would eliminate having to move the station and to have a reverse move

[KincLosddy]

Originally Posted by mattropolis

Another option is to build a new passenger only rail bridge to the east. It would eliminate having to move the station and to have a reverse move

The Mission Rail bridge is one of the oldest Fraser Crossings. It's probably in need of extensive seismic work at best. A new crossing would be preferable for both passengers and cargo.

Relying on infrastructure from the Edwardian times is... unfortunate in this day and age.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by KincLosddy

The Mission Rail bridge is one of the oldest Fraser Crossings. It's probably in need of extensive seismic work at best. A new crossing would be preferable for both passengers and cargo.

Relying on infrastructure from the Edwardian times is... unfortunate in this day and age.

Needs to be double tracked.

Same with the bridge in New Westminster, which is almost as old as the Mission Bridge.

[Migrant_Coconut]

I believe the bridge is CP's - if so, they're going to sit on it until it maxes out and/or starts falling apart, and any alternative will be a 100% government-funded passenger bridge. Seems easier to move the platform.

[Helvetia]

Originally Posted by ahdede

The 2021 preliminary study looked into this exact issue...

Unrelated, but was that study ever made public beyond the DH article? I'd like to read through it myself.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Helvetia

Unrelated, but was that study ever made public beyond the DH article? I'd like to read through it myself.

The Tabloid Formerly Known As VanCity Buzz never links to anything but itself (and this one's an FOI request, so still classified). Closest you'll get is this one.

[Helvetia]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The Tabloid Formerly Known As VanCity Buzz never links to anything but itself (and this one's an FOI request, so still classified). Closest you'll get is this one.

Thank you! And yeah, trying to search something based off DH is a nightmare.

[RedArbutus]

Originally Posted by Helvetia

Thank you! And yeah, trying to search something based off DH is a nightmare.

Your daily reminder that Kenneth Chan is a hack