Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At least at the moment, Quebec's economy isn't as productive as Sweden's. Though we do have a similar population.

Looking at Swedish metro areas is interesting.

Stockholm is 2.3M so a bit smaller than Vancouver and less than half of Montreal.

Goteborg is 1.2 million so in the Ottawa-Calgary-Edmonton range, and quite a bit larger than Quebec City.

Then you have Malmo which is 700,000 so Quebec City-Winnipeg-Hamilton sized.

In Quebec the next metro after Quebec City is Gatineau which is just over 300,000. A lot smaller than Malmo.

After that Sherbrooke is 225-250,000 then you get into metros under 200,000 in Quebec.

Sweden has Uppsala which is similar to Gatineau, and then Helsingborg which is Sherbrooke sized.

Then Sweden has five other cities that are bigger or as big as the only two other cities in the running in Quebec: Saguenay and Trois-Rivières.

These are only comparisons of population size I presume. It would be pretty upsetting if someone would read this post and show up in Gatineau expecting Quebec's Uppsala.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What sectors are being currently boosted that explain that Québec City grew by +1.00% per year between 2011 and 2021, and +2.11% per year since 2023?

You describe a depressed city, which, if it was the case, would grow at around +0.3% or +0.4% per year (think Rouen or Grenoble in France for example). At +1.0% per year (not even counting the recent upsurge in immigration), this makes Québec City ranking along the likes of Rennes and Lyon, which by all metrics are considered very dynamic urban economies.

A stable government town and capital is not a depressed city. In a North American context if it was depressed, it would be losing population. You should know that given that you've lived in the US before.

I was saying within Québec, not within Canada. And they don't have both 5 million people, no. Capetown has 4.6 million people whereas Johannesburg has... 15.6 million people. That's a ratio of 3.4 to 1.

What other urban cities are you lumping together to get to 15M for Johannesburg? How did you arrive at a figure much higher than official stats that's more in the range of 5-10M depending on urban boundary? At that rate, why not just lump Montreal and Quebec City together into one mega urban region.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

If Quebec did become independent, its domestic economy would be equivalent to a small Scandinavian country like Denmark or Sweden, so I don't see how it can support two big metropolises..

I hadn't seen this.

Québec will very soon have the same population as Sweden. Sweden supports three large (by European standards) metro areas: Stockholm, Göteborg, and Malmö. The three have more than 1 million people each in their metro areas.

Also keep in mind that Québec is a 'new world' country, which means it doesn't have the network of market towns and medium range cities that pepper European countries with milleniums of history and urban fact. Québec is essentially a big wilderness with a few cities where people concentrate. So that means it has the potential to have far larger cities than European countries of similar size. And in fact it does, since it has a Montréal of more than 4 million people, which no Scandinavian country possesses (the largest Scandinavian metro area, Stockholm, has only 2.2 million inhabitants, but then Scandinavian countries have scores of medium range cities which are little local capitals, with 50,000 to 300,000 inhabitants, which Québec doesn't have to the same extent... imagine a 200,000 inh. city in Québec every 80 km).

So it's a different organization of the population within the countries really. Canada, Australia, NZ, and most of the US are very similar in this respect: large empty wildernesses with a few cities where people concentrate.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by theman23

These are only comparisons of population size I presume. It would be pretty upsetting if someone would read this post and show up in Gatineau expecting Quebec's Uppsala.

Yes, I think everyone understood that.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, I think everyone understood that.

Hopefully!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Would you say that the differences between individuals from different places, here on this SSP thread, are marginal, given there is no difference in the predominant code that SSP humans are using to communicate in this thread?

I was being sarcastic.

Though keep in mind that some of us (namely those from Québec and France) are using our secondary communication code on here to allow the conversation to take place.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Canada is different from the USA. Quebec is different from the rest of Canada. And Montreal is different from the rest of Quebec.

on that, maybe we can agree?

Montréal watches the same shows on TV as the rest of Québec, and listens to the same radio programs. So no, I don't agree.

Of course, as any 'capital' (economic capital in this case), it's slightly different from the rest of its "country", but not in the way Québec is different from ROC, or Canada from the US. It's more like NYC vs rest of the US. Or perhaps Toronto vs rest of Ontario, with which I'm less familiar.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I hadn't seen this.

Québec will very soon have the same population as Sweden. Sweden supports three large (by European standards) metro areas: Stockholm, Göteborg, and Malmö. The three have more than 1 million people each in their metro areas.

Also keep in mind that Québec is a 'new world' country, which means it doesn't have the network of market towns and medium range cities that pepper European countries with milleniums of history and urban fact. Québec is essentially a big wilderness with a few cities where people concentrate. So that means it has the potential to have far larger cities than European countries of similar size. And in fact it does, since it has a Montréal of more than 4 million people, which no Scandinavian country possesses (the largest Scandinavian metro area, Stockholm, has only 2.2 million inhabitants, but then Scandinavian countries have scores of medium range cities which are little local capitals, with 50,000 to 300,000 inhabitants, which Québec doesn't have to the same extent... imagine a 200,000 inh. city in Québec every 80 km).

So it's a different organization of the population within the countries really. Canada, Australia, NZ, and most of the US are very similar in this respect: large empty wildernesses with a few cities where people concentrate.

A better example closer to home is neighbouring Ontario and New York state. Despite having over 16M in Ontario and 19M in NYS, neither has a second metropolis with more than 2M+.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

What other urban cities are you lumping together to get to 15M for Johannesburg? How did you arrive at a figure much higher than official stats that's more in the range of 5-10M depending on urban boundary? At that rate, why not just lump Montreal and Quebec City together into one mega urban region.

The 15+ million metric for Johannesburg is the built-up area of Gauteng which includes Pretoria. There's no gap between the cities anymore but still distinct vibes - kind of a Toronto-Hamilton thing. Also of interest for this thread two distinct European language preferences - English for Johannesburg vs Afrikaans for Pretoria. The 5M figure counts Ekurhuleni as a separate metro, probably due to the misrepresenting South African municipality tier of "Metropolitan Municipality" as a distinct metro area. Statistics South Africa simply doesn't measure metropolitan conurbations in the same way Stats Can or the US does. Ekurlheni is absolutely part of the Joburg metro though and would be more akin to Mississauga (also home to the airport). The dividing line is actually just East of what many would think of as the central city: https://maps.app.goo.gl/2SnZnvbepbD9D5cr5 Somewhere like Centurion is iffy and could make claims for either Joburg or Pretoria, and recent growth there has closed the gap between the two cities other than the series of ridges directly south of the Pretoria CBD.

True metro size is probably around 10 million vs 5 for Cape Town. Joburg is (and feels) a LOT bigger than CT, probably moreso than the difference between Toronto and Montreal. Though the term "Johannesburg-Pretoria metro area" or "Gauteng City Region" could be accurately be used to refer to a contiguous urban area over 15M, just with distinct core cities.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Montréal watches the same shows on TV as the rest of Québec, and listens to the same radio programs. So no, I don't agree.

Of course, as any 'capital' (economic capital in this case), it's slightly different from the rest of its "country", but not in the way Québec is different from ROC, or Canada from the US. It's more like NYC vs rest of the US. Or perhaps Toronto vs rest of Ontario, with which I'm less familiar.

Due to the anglo presence and pressure, Montreal is probably a bit more different from the régions than your typical metropolis-hinterland differences.

That said, ethnic French Canadians are actually a larger share of the population in Montreal than ethnic Anglo-Canadians are in Toronto and Vancouver. By quite a bit in fact.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In Miami the cops, paramedics and firefighters talk on the radio in English. In Montreal they communicate in French. In Miami the little printout receipt from McDonald's or any business will be in English. In Montreal it will be in French. In Montreal around 90% of schoolkids go to K-12 in French. In Miami there is no public K-12 education in Spanish. If Spanish is taught it's to bring kids along in a bilingual environment until they're ready to switch over to all English.

And also in Montréal French is the ancestral language of the inhabitants (at least since the 17th century), passed from generation to generation, whereas in Miami Spanish is an immigrant imported language. That's the major difference.

Eventually, Miami will become 100% Anglophone when immigration stops and the 3rd generation immigrants lose completely the Spanish tongue. It happened before with German in the Midwest.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Due to the anglo presence and pressure, Montreal is probably a bit more different from the régions than your typical metropolis-hinterland differences.

That said, ethnic French Canadians are actually a larger share of the population in Montreal than ethnic Anglo-Canadians are in Toronto and Vancouver. By quite a bit in fact.

This is the fundamental difference in 2024. For most of the rest of Canada English is just a lingua franca and no longer as important a part of our history or heritage.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

And also in Montréal French is the ancestral language of the inhabitants (at least since the 17th century), passed from generation to generation, whereas in Miami Spanish is an immigrant imported language. That's the major difference.

Eventually, Miami will become 100% Anglophone when immigration stops and the 3rd generation immigrants lose completely the Spanish tongue. It happened before with German in the Midwest.

Miami is actually an important crossroads for Latin American business, but companies there have a hard time finding locally-raised staff who have good professional Spanish skills.

Obviously that problem doesn't exist in Montreal, except maybe at Tim Hortons and McDonald's it seems. Oh yeah, and the C-suite of Air Canada!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Yep which puts into perspective Montreal's juggernaut role in Quebec. To realize New Brisavoine's fantasy of 2M+ in Quebec City in the forseeable future, we'd need an independent Quebec government actively suppressing Montreal and play a heavy handed role in reallocating commerce and business investment to Quebec City.

Oh I think in an independent Québec Montréal would definitely suffer a little, and Québec City gain a lot. That's both because an independent Québec would probably import less immigrants (and Québec's birth rates are catastrophic, so little growth without immigrants) and Montréal would lose the few pan-Canadian economic functions it still possesses. Québec City, on the other hand, would be greatly boosted by expanding government services plus relocations of embassies, etc. Berlin has grown tremendously since the German government returned there, despite being located in the depressed part of Germany.

That being said, by the time Québec becomes independent (if ever), Montréal will already have 5 million inhabitants, so the end of its growth wouldn't be catastrophic I think. Do you really want Montréal to have more than 5 million inhabitants? Geographers these days believe 5 million is the right figure for cities: large enough to enjoy all the goodies of size, without the negatives of being TOO large, as Toronto is currently discovering.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is the fundamental difference in 2024. For most of the rest of Canada English is just a lingua franca and no longer as important a part of our history or heritage.

The ROC is nonetheless very anglo-normative in the societal and cultural sense, and it will likely remain so for quite some time regardless of its ethnic makeup. This stuff really does run deeper than simply using a code to communicate. The language or languages you speak help shape who and what you are beyond simple speech.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by theman23

These are only comparisons of population size I presume. It would be pretty upsetting if someone would read this post and show up in Gatineau expecting Quebec's Uppsala.

North American cities are ALWAYS disappointing for us Europeans in terms of vibrancy compared to their stated population. In my experience, you always have to divide the population of a US city by 2 in order to compare it to something similar in Europe. So for example if a US metro area has 1.5 million inhabitants, it's going to be comparable in terms of vibrancy and urban feel to a metro area of just 750,000 inhabitants in Europe.

For example according to the stats Oklahoma City metro area has as many inhabitants as Toulouse metro area, but no way Oklahoma City looks and feels as big and vibrant as Toulouse! In fact Toulouse would more compare to Portland, Oregon (which has officially 2.5 million inhabitants in its metro area). Ditto with Lyon which has as many inhabitants in its metro area as... Cincinnati (), but no way Cincinnati feels as big and vibrant as Lyon!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

What other urban cities are you lumping together to get to 15M for Johannesburg? How did you arrive at a figure much higher than official stats that's more in the range of 5-10M depending on urban boundary?

http://www.demographia.com/db-worldua.pdf

That's the most authoritative source on urban agglomerations in the world.

Johannesburg has grown enormously since the end of Apartheid, with the rural flight of Black Africans, who congregate in the Gauteng capital region. Gauteng has grown from less than 7 million people at the end of Apartheid to 15.1 million people at the 2022 census.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

North American cities are ALWAYS disappointing for us Europeans in terms of vibrancy compared to their stated population. In my experience, you always have to divide the population of a US city by 2 in order to compare it to something similar in Europe. So for example if a US metro area has 1.5 million inhabitants, it's going to be comparable in terms of vibrancy and urban feel to a metro area of just 750,000 inhabitants in Europe.

For example according to the stats Oklahoma City metro area has as many inhabitants as Toulouse metro area, but no way Oklahoma City looks and feels as big and vibrant as Toulouse! In fact Toulouse would more compare to Portland, Oregon (which has officially 2.5 million inhabitants in its metro area). Ditto with Lyon which has as many inhabitants in its metro area as... Cincinnati (), but no way Cincinnati feels as big and vibrant as Lyon!

Gatineau can't even hold a candle to non-touristy cities in Europe that are half its size like Helsingborg and Amiens.

Though we are the youngest major city in Quebec, maybe not in terms of year of founding but in terms of when we grew up. This has handicapped our core urbanity a great deal.

In some ways we are more typical of a city in the central-western part of the continent than in the older eastern part.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

A better example closer to home is neighbouring Ontario and New York state. Despite having over 16M in Ontario and 19M in NYS, neither has a second metropolis with more than 2M+.

Neither has the history of Québec either, with Québec City being the historical capital and historically largest city until the early 19th century. History matters for the sizes of cities. If Québec City had never been the capital city of French and then British Canada, and had always been a 2ndary regional center of no particular importance like Trois Rivières or Sherbrooke, obviously it would not have close to 900,000 inhabitants today and growing at more than 1% per year.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Obviously that problem doesn't exist in Montreal, except maybe at Tim Hortons and McDonald's it seems. Oh yeah, and the C-suite of Air Canada!

France is still happy with your former boss of Air Canada though, who learned professional French in record time.

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