Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I'm not sure if Acajack missed my point or whatever but I certainly never said that the French language is not crucial to what makes Montreal distinct. All you have to do is visit the extremely anglophone parts of town like far western NDG to see how generically North American they feel compared to the areas where French predominates — or where there has been a dynamic interaction between French, English and other cultural/linguistic influences. One of the reasons Mile End has become so popular both as a place to live and as a tourist destination is because it really captures that fluid Montreal spirit. But while it's quite an (ethnic) anglo area, it is still predominantly francophone.

The other extreme is true too, though. If the West Island feels like some kind of bootleg version of Ontario, Pointe-aux-Trembles feels like a generic place in les régions.

I was agreeing with you. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Diversity within an Anglo-Saxon context. Let's not kid ourselves! No US city can remotely be compared to Montréal in terms of its uniqueness and otherness (the only one that to some extent could be compared is New Orleans, no surprise there, but it has faded considerably in recent decades, and the disappearance of the French language there has of course removed part of its cachet and uniqueness).

Maybe Miami as well, but there again language also plays into it - to some degree anyway.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

It's entirely possible that Quebec City may one day hit the 2 million threshold, but based on modern economics it won't be easy to achieve.

The economy is not static though. A Québec City CMA of 1 million people (at the corner of the coming decade) will generate a consumer economy that the Québec City CMA of 500,000 people of a few years ago would not have generated.

And in any case if Québec became independent (which was the start of this discussion), it would boost the status, economy and population of Québec City a lot.

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

The Australian equivalent of Montreal - Quebec City is Sydney - Canberra, even if Quebec City is far superior as a city and urban experience to Canberra.

Yeah, Québec City cannot be compared to Canberra. It's more comparable to Capetown (vs Johannesburg).

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Spanish cities are both very dynamic and lively, AND made practical for car drivers (with no blocked streets and tons of easy underground car parks). I think people who don't like cars in the cities in fact don't like cities. They probably would not have liked carts and horses in the cities back in the days. "Les embarras de Paris" was a famous book published in the 1780s. If you don't like "les embarras" of a city, then perhaps move to the countryside instead of forcing the city to ressemble a sleepy countryside?

Hasn't really been my experience. Driving through Eixample wasn't a breeze for instance.

Driving through the smaller cities in Spain seemed no different than the equivalent French cities. Cote D'Azur is still super car centric, even up to Aix and Avignon. Both are a breeze compared to the nightmarish streets of Italy.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

That's also why Quebec City has failed to attract as many immigrants as Montreal. Immigrants don't necessarily want to live in Montreal, many of them would prefer somewhere smaller and quieter. But Quebec City's economy is less diverse and there just aren't as many opportunities for newcomers.

Not since 2011. The growth rates (that I gave above) were absolutely similar between 2011 and 2021, so obviously Québec City attracted proportionally as many inhabitants as Montréal (since its growth cannot be explained by a higher birth rate). And since 2021, the Institut de la statistique du Québec believes Québec City has actually grown MORE than Montréal (+2.11% per year between 2021 and 2023 for Québec City, which is enormous really for a Western city, vs +1.97% per year for Montréal).

So immigrants seem to be flocking to Québec City.

[MolsonExport]

percentages are flattering, especially when you ignore base rates. there are long running SSP jokes about Okotoks and Milton for this reason.

Anyways:

Record population growth in half of Québec’s regions, particularly in Montréal

Québec, May 22, 2024. – Almost all of Québec’s administrative regions saw their population increase between July 1, 2022 and July 1, 2023, and half of them posted their strongest growth since data became available at this level of geography in 1986–1987. This is especially true for Montréal, which had the strongest growth of all regions by far. Montréal’s population increased by 89,600 over the past year, up 4.3% compared to 2.3% for the province overall. No region had ever registered such a high annual growth rate. The increase in Montréal alone accounted for 44% of province’s total annual growth.

https://statistique.quebec.ca/en/communique/croissance-demographique-record-moitie-regions-quebec

Montreal's wooty days were in the 1950s

Montreal - Historical Population Data
Year Population Growth Rate
2024 4,342,000 0.79%
2023 4,308,000 0.72%
2022 4,277,000 0.71%
2021 4,247,000 0.62%
2020 4,221,000 0.60%
2019 4,196,000 0.58%
2018 4,172,000 0.82%
2017 4,138,000 0.83%
2016 4,104,000 0.84%
2015 4,070,000 0.82%
2014 4,037,000 0.82%
2013 4,004,000 0.83%
2012 3,971,000 0.81%
2011 3,939,000 1.08%
2010 3,897,000 1.12%
2009 3,854,000 1.10%
2008 3,812,000 1.11%
2007 3,770,000 1.13%
2006 3,728,000 1.47%
2005 3,674,000 1.52%
2004 3,619,000 1.54%
2003 3,564,000 1.51%
2002 3,511,000 1.53%
2001 3,458,000 0.85%
2000 3,429,000 0.73%
1999 3,404,000 0.74%
1998 3,379,000 0.75%
1997 3,354,000 0.72%
1996 3,330,000 0.76%
1995 3,305,000 0.70%
1994 3,282,000 0.74%
1993 3,258,000 0.74%
1992 3,234,000 0.72%
1991 3,211,000 1.81%
1990 3,154,000 1.91%
1989 3,095,000 1.88%
1988 3,038,000 1.91%
1987 2,981,000 1.88%
1986 2,926,000 0.76%
1985 2,904,000 0.66%
1984 2,885,000 0.63%
1983 2,867,000 0.67%
1982 2,848,000 0.64%
1981 2,830,000 0.21%
1980 2,824,000 0.21%
1979 2,818,000 0.18%
1978 2,813,000 0.18%
1977 2,808,000 0.18%
1976 2,803,000 0.43%
1975 2,791,000 0.40%
1974 2,780,000 0.43%
1973 2,768,000 0.44%
1972 2,756,000 0.44%
1971 2,744,000 2.24%
1970 2,684,000 2.40%
1969 2,621,000 2.38%
1968 2,560,000 2.40%
1967 2,500,000 2.38%
1966 2,442,000 2.91%
1965 2,373,000 2.91%
1964 2,306,000 2.95%
1963 2,240,000 2.94%
1962 2,176,000 2.88%
1961 2,115,000 4.14%
1960 2,031,000 4.21%
1959 1,949,000 4.22%
1958 1,870,000 4.24%
1957 1,794,000 4.18%
1956 1,722,000 4.24%
1955 1,652,000 4.23%
1954 1,585,000 4.21%
1953 1,521,000 4.25%
1952 1,459,000 4.21%

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/20384/montreal/population
1951 1,400,000 4.24%

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Maybe Miami as well, but there again language also plays into it - to some degree anyway.

Miami is still very American. It's America 'en español' ("para español tecla 2"). Montréal is North American but it isn't American (as in USian). Canada is already quite different from the US, but Québec is itself quite different from the ROC. The feeling of "otherness" is never going to be the same in Miami. Only New Orleans could have been like Montréal, if it had kept its Francophone elites and majority.

Miami is a dubbed version of the US. Montréal is the foreign movie en VO with English subtitles.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The economy is not static though. A Québec City CMA of 1 million people (at the corner of the coming decade) will generate a consumer economy that the Québec City CMA of 500,000 people of a few years ago would not have generated.

And in any case if Québec became independent (which was the start of this discussion), it would boost the status, economy and population of Québec City a lot.

This sounds like wishful thinking to me. What sectors would be boosted other than adding some government roles?

If Quebec did become independent, its domestic economy would be equivalent to a small Scandinavian country like Denmark or Sweden, so I don't see how it can support two big metropolises. If anything, an independent Quebec would be more reliant on Montreal to scale up the economy and compete on the international stage.

Yeah, Québec City cannot be compared to Canberra. It's more comparable to Capetown (vs Johannesburg).

Capetown to Johannesburg again is Toronto to Montreal, so your comparison makes no sense. Both South African metros have 5M people.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Hasn't really been my experience. Driving through Eixample wasn't a breeze for instance.

Seriously? I found driving in Barcelona a complete breeze compared to Paris!

Italian cities are a bit harder to navigate (especially with all their rules to prevent cars from reaching the city centers now), but at least they don"t close roads and avenues as in Paris, or force people to drive 30 km/h! (plus nobody respects the speed limits anyway, this being Italy )

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

This sounds like wishful thinking to me. What sectors would be boosted other than adding some government roles?

If Quebec did become independent, its domestic economy would be equivalent to a small Scandinavian country like Denmark or Sweden, so I don't see how it can support two big metropolises. If anything, an independent Quebec would be more reliant on Montreal to scale up the economy and compete on the international stage.
.

At least at the moment, Quebec's economy isn't as productive as Sweden's. Though we do have a similar population.

Looking at Swedish metro areas is interesting.

Stockholm is 2.3M so a bit smaller than Vancouver and less than half of Montreal.

Goteborg is 1.2 million so in the Ottawa-Calgary-Edmonton range, and quite a bit larger than Quebec City.

Then you have Malmo which is 700,000 so Quebec City-Winnipeg-Hamilton sized.

In Quebec the next metro after Quebec City is Gatineau which is just over 300,000. A lot smaller than Malmo.

After that Sherbrooke is 225-250,000 then you get into metros under 200,000 in Quebec.

Sweden has Uppsala which is similar to Gatineau, and then Helsingborg which is Sherbrooke sized.

Then Sweden has five other cities that are bigger or as big as the only two other cities in the running in Quebec: Saguenay and Trois-Rivières.

[MolsonExport]

Canada is different from the USA. Quebec is different from the rest of Canada. And Montreal is different from the rest of Quebec.

on that, maybe we can agree?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Canada is different from the USA. Quebec is different from the rest of Canada. And Montreal is different from the rest of Quebec.

on that, maybe we can agree?

I will agree to that if Acajack agrees too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Miami is still very American. It's America 'en español' ("para español tecla 2"). Montréal is North American but it isn't American (as in USian). Canada is already quite different from the US, but Québec is itself quite different from the ROC. The feeling of "otherness" is never going to be the same in Miami. Only New Orleans could have been like Montréal, if it had kept its Francophone elites and majority.

Miami is a dubbed version of the US. Montréal is the foreign movie en VO with English subtitles.

Yes, I agree with that.

In all honesty, I find some people overstate how Spanish Miami is and sometimes equate French in Montreal with Spanish in Miami. (And some people also have told me they think Miami is more Spanish than Montreal is French!)

This is greatly overstating the presence of Spanish in Miami. Which is significant, but it's not like French in Montreal.

In Miami the cops, paramedics and firefighters talk on the radio in English. In Montreal they communicate in French. In Miami the little printout receipt from McDonald's or any business will be in English. In Montreal it will be in French. In Montreal around 90% of schoolkids go to K-12 in French. In Miami there is no public K-12 education in Spanish. If Spanish is taught it's to bring kids along in a bilingual environment until they're ready to switch over to all English.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

This sounds like wishful thinking to me. What sectors would be boosted other than adding some government roles?

What sectors are being currently boosted that explain that Québec City grew by +1.00% per year between 2011 and 2021, and +2.11% per year since 2023?

You describe a depressed city, which, if it was the case, would grow at around +0.3% or +0.4% per year (think Rouen or Grenoble in France for example). At +1.0% per year (not even counting the recent upsurge in immigration), this makes Québec City ranking along the likes of Rennes and Lyon, which by all metrics are considered very dynamic urban economies.

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Capetown to Johannesburg again is Toronto to Montreal, so your comparison makes no sense. Both South African metros have 5M people.

I was saying within Québec, not within Canada. And they don't have both 5 million people, no. Capetown has 4.6 million people whereas Johannesburg has... 15.6 million people. That's a ratio of 3.4 to 1. Montréal vs Québec City is a ratio of 5.1 to 1. Sydney vs Canberra is a ratio of 11.5 to 1. So Montréal vs Québec City is closer to Capetown vs Johannesburg than Sydney vs Canberra. Québec City is also the oldest and formerly largest city of Québec, like Capetown in South Africa. So the comparison is quite fitting. Québec City is however still the national capital, which Capetown isn't anymore.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Canada is different from the USA. Quebec is different from the rest of Canada. And Montreal is different from the rest of Quebec.

on that, maybe we can agree?

No. Montreal is completely identical to Toronto in all respects except for a slight difference in the predominant code humans use to communicate with.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At least at the moment, Quebec's economy isn't as productive as Sweden's. Though we do have a similar population.

Looking at Swedish metro areas is interesting.

Stockholm is 2.3M so a bit smaller than Vancouver and less than half of Montreal.

Goteborg is 1.2 million so in the Ottawa-Calgary-Edmonton range, and quite a bit larger than Quebec City.

Then you have Malmo which is 700,000 so Quebec City-Winnipeg-Hamilton sized.

Yep which puts into perspective Montreal's juggernaut role in Quebec. To realize New Brisavoine's fantasy of 2M+ in Quebec City in the forseeable future, we'd need an independent Quebec government actively suppressing Montreal and play a heavy handed role in reallocating commerce and business investment to Quebec City.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No. Montreal is completely identical to Toronto in all respects except for a slight difference in the predominant code humans use to communicate with.

You are forgetting smoked meat and bagels.

Oh yes, and poutine.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

You are forgetting smoked meat and bagels.

Oh yes, and poutine.

Hey, poutine is as "Toronto" as you can get!

https://www.narcity.com/toronto/new-era-blue-jays-cap-gets-roasted-on-social-media-for-poutine-logo

[MolsonExport]

Would you say that the differences between individuals from different places, here on this SSP thread, are marginal, given there is no difference in the predominant code that SSP humans are using to communicate in this thread?

[MolsonExport]

anyways, I love the fact that Montreal is predominately French and I revel in its uniqueness relative to other North American cities. It is one of the greatest cities on the continent, and not because of its size.