Burrard Inlet Rapid Transit - Park Royal-Metrotown via 2nd Narrows | BRT/RRT?

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by dpogue

In terms of ridership, there's much more demand along 41st or 49th than along Hastings, so I would expect to see a train proposal for that ahead of Hastings. That said, there is political pressure for the line to the North Shore and that essentially has to cross through Burnaby and Hastings, but Surrey is definitely going to want their line to Newton after that.

As far as I understand it, the 41st/49th corridor is doing just fine with bus capacity, and 49th is set to get a major bus lane expansion with the recent motion passed by city council (along with limited 41st bus lane expansion).

I personally find it very hard to believe that 41st/49th would have any priority over the North Shore, Surrey, and the PoCo-Pitt Meadows-Maple Ridge corridor. Hell I think we're more likely to see rail transit to Squamish before a 41st/49th route. (Bear in mind, the 41st/49th corridor is not a convenient right of way! Imagine the cost of tunnelling...)

[Migrant_Coconut]

The North Shore Line benefits most of the North Shore, Park Royal, Lonsdale, Lower Lynn, Cap U, Burnaby Heights, Brentwood, BCIT, Metrotown, and transfers between the Expo and Millennium.

The 41st/49th Line benefits most of South Van, Oakridge, Langara, Kerrisdale and... anybody wanting to go to UBC without taking the M-Line. Richmond/Metrotown trips, maybe.

Small wonder why the NSL's going first.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by chowhou

As far as I understand it, the 41st/49th corridor is doing just fine with bus capacity, and 49th is set to get a major bus lane expansion with the recent motion passed by city council (along with limited 41st bus lane expansion).

I personally find it very hard to believe that 41st/49th would have any priority over the North Shore, Surrey, and the PoCo-Pitt Meadows-Maple Ridge corridor. Hell I think we're more likely to see rail transit to Squamish before a 41st/49th route. (Bear in mind, the 41st/49th corridor is not a convenient right of way! Imagine the cost of tunnelling...)

2023 Busiest Bus Routes

99 B-Line: 11.31 million
1. 99 B-Line: 11.31 million
2. R4 UBC/Joyce-Collingwood Station RapidBus: 8.84 million
3. 49 Metrotown Station/UBC: 8.45 million
4. 319 Scott Road Station/Newton Exchange: 6.83 million
5. 25 Brentwood Station/UBC: 6.64 million
6. 16 29th Avenue Station/UBC: 5.35 million
7. R1 Surrey Central Station/Newton Exchange: 4.88 million
8. R5 Burrard Station/SFU RapidBus: 4.67 million
9. 5/6 Robson/Downtown: 4.53 million
10. 19 Metrotown Station/Stanley Park: 4.49 million

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/translink-metro-vancouver-public-transit-ridership-statistics-2023

The R4 and 49 are comparable to the 99 B-line, you know, that extremely busy bus route that needed a Skytrain. The 41/49 corridor is beyond any other route in terms of ridership. The only reason BIRT should be considered above it is because it would provide capacity relief for the bridges over the Burrard Inlet.

So evidently, this route is more worthy of Skytrain than the PoCo-Pitt Meadows-Maple Ridge corridor, that already has the R3 that only has a measly 1,000,000 annual riders. I think KGB should get Skytrain, but mostly because it would be better to build it now before the area develops, than later, not because the current ridership actually demands it.

In terms of convenience, I agree, it would be hard to do, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. There is always the option to remove a lane to install an elevated guideway too.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

The R4 and 49 are comparable to the 99 B-line, you know, that extremely busy bus route that needed a Skytrain. The 41/49 corridor is beyond any other route in terms of ridership. The only reason BIRT should be considered above it is because it would provide capacity relief for the bridges over the Burrard Inlet...

Most of the R4/49 passengers are headed for UBC or Metrotown, so it's more than likely that a finished Millennium Line all the way to Wesbrook absorbs most of that ridership. The R2 is also constrained by a lack of connectivity to the rest of the network - once the BRT from Metrotown to Phibbs opens, expect the North Shore demand to skyrocket.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

The R4 and 49 are comparable to the 99 B-line, you know, that extremely busy bus route that needed a Skytrain. The 41/49 corridor is beyond any other route in terms of ridership. The only reason BIRT should be considered above it is because it would provide capacity relief for the bridges over the Burrard Inlet.

So evidently, this route is more worthy of Skytrain than the PoCo-Pitt Meadows-Maple Ridge corridor, that already has the R3 that only has a measly 1,000,000 annual riders. I think KGB should get Skytrain, but mostly because it would be better to build it now before the area develops, than later, not because the current ridership actually demands it.

In terms of convenience, I agree, it would be hard to do, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. There is always the option to remove a lane to install an elevated guideway too.

Busy != prioritized. By this logic, some of the next SkyTrain Lines should be along King Ed and Arbutus along the 25 and 16 routes. Not likely. And why the hell is the Surrey Langley Line being built? Why was the Evergreen Line built when Broadway, 41st, and 49th were right there the whole time?

Frankly, likely the only reason the Broadway Extension is being built now is because Translink physically could not force more 99s down Broadway. 41st and 49th have no such issue. The road is not very congested, and even then 41st has dedicated bus lanes for most of it. There are higher priorities for Metro Vancouver than spending billions (potentially 11 figures? $10+ billion? The Broadway Extension is looking like $3 billion, and Metrotown to Oakridge is twice the distance, not to even consider UBC) on a 41st/49th SkyTrain line.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Also, the Broadway/UBC SkyTrain's going ahead in part because the entire corridor is a destination - even Greektown gets a lot of traffic, as will Jericho.

Not so with 41st/49th: there's five big ones at Metrotown, Langara, Oakridge, Kerrisdale and UBC, but the other 90% is just detached homes and infill. That's going to push it a little further down the list.

[Sheba]

As we're off-topic and veering heavily into fantasy territory...

TransLink has already stated they're going to be doing less Skytrain and instead mostly build BRT for the near future. Their 2050 10 Year Priorities Plan even includes a map (on pg 39) that shows where they plan on doing this.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Sheba

As we're off-topic and veering heavily into fantasy territory...

TransLink has already stated they're going to be doing less Skytrain and instead mostly build BRT for the near future. Their 2050 10 Year Priorities Plan even includes a map (on pg 39) that shows where they plan on doing this.

I don't think that under any circumstances there are Skytrain Lines beyond the Broadway Extension and Surrey Langley Extension that are even possible within 10 years. Even BIRT, the topic of this thread, is certainly not looking at a 10 year horizon for possibility, but it's definitely in the consciousness of Translink.

41st-49th/Hastings/Poco-Pitt-Maple/KGB/etc. are all going to be medium to long term plans. I don't think it's as simple as saying Translink isn't building SkyTrain in the near future.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Busy != prioritized. By this logic, some of the next SkyTrain Lines should be along King Ed and Arbutus along the 25 and 16 routes. Not likely. And why the hell is the Surrey Langley Line being built? Why was the Evergreen Line built when Broadway, 41st, and 49th were right there the whole time?

I would say King Edward and 16 are closer to Broadway, and in that case when the Broadway Subway opens, especially all the way to UBC, a lot of traffic on those routes will shift to the M line. Kind of like how a lot of North South traffic funnels onto the Canada Line. 41/49 a much further south.

As for your last point, I do completely agree that there is value in building Skytrain into new regions, as Skytrain is essential for a good bus network too. Those regions though need some ridership and development potential to justify it. Maple Meadows is just too far and low density however. Once the SLS goes in, putting in a KGB line (which I think needs to go in soon) would be a corridor that is Skytrain-adjacent, like how 41/49 is. The difference with 41/49 is that South Vancouver is a fairly dense area (look at it on censusmapper, densities of 6000 to 10000 people per sqkm) whereas KGB is still fairly low density.

Frankly, likely the only reason the Broadway Extension is being built now is because Translink physically could not force more 99s down Broadway. 41st and 49th have no such issue. The road is not very congested, and even then 41st has dedicated bus lanes for most of it. There are higher priorities for Metro Vancouver than spending billions (potentially 11 figures? $10+ billion? The Broadway Extension is looking like $3 billion, and Metrotown to Oakridge is twice the distance, not to even consider UBC) on a 41st/49th SkyTrain line.

I would argue a 41/49 route could be built for much cheaper because they have the option to cut and cover it like they did on Cambie, unlike with on Broadway.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Also, the Broadway/UBC SkyTrain's going ahead in part because the entire corridor is a destination - even Greektown gets a lot of traffic, as will Jericho.

Not so with 41st/49th: there's five big ones at Metrotown, Langara, Oakridge, Kerrisdale and UBC, but the other 90% is just detached homes and infill. That's going to push it a little further down the list.

As I've said above, the Oakridge to Metrorown stretch is a dense area. The SFH is deceptive. Lots of larger immigrant families and people living in basement suites. Densities range from 60 to 100 per ha over a fairly large area.

[ecbin]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Devil's advocate: Burnaby is the great crossroads of Metro Vancouver. All roads lead to Rome (downtown), but they have to go through Burnaby first. Surrey to Vancouver? Through Burnaby. Richmond to Coquitlam? Through Burnaby. North Shore to anywhere? Probably going through Burnaby.

And this is why Burnaby doesn't get enough 🞵🞵🞵🞵 about how it's housing policies are terrible and holding back the region - it has a population density that's 40% lower than Vancouver and only builds at the 3rd highest volume while getting major infrastructure flowing through it from everywhere.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

As I've said above, the Oakridge to Metrorown stretch is a dense area. The SFH is deceptive. Lots of larger immigrant families and people living in basement suites. Densities range from 60 to 100 per ha over a fairly large area.

Destinations, not density. Nothing between Oakridge/Langara and Metrotown (definitely not Oakridge-Kerrisdale or Kerrisdale-UBC) really justifies more than extra RapidBuses at the moment.

[BaddieB]

.deleted.

[dleung]

Nothing in Langley justifies skytrain either, but here we are.

Priorities IMO:

Yesterday: UBC subway
2028: skytrain to Fleetwood ONLY, Guildford to Strawberry Hill LRT/BRT
2035: Lonsdale to Metrotown skytrain/subway, WCE extension to Abbotsford,
2040: Metrotown to Kerrisdale subway, Steveston LRT
2045: new WCE line linking Langley/Cloverdale/Newton/Annieville/New West/River District/Marine Gateway

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by dleung

Nothing in Langley justifies skytrain either, but here we are.

Priorities IMO:

Yesterday: UBC subway
2028: skytrain to Fleetwood ONLY, Guildford to Strawberry Hill LRT/BRT
2035: Lonsdale to Metrotown skytrain/subway, WCE extension to Abbotsford,
2040: Metrotown to Kerrisdale subway, Steveston LRT
2045: new WCE line linking Langley/Cloverdale/Newton/Annieville/New West/River District/Marine Gateway

There's a thread for transit fantasies. This is for the north shore transit that you forgot to mention.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by dleung

Nothing in Langley justifies skytrain either, but here we are.

Fleetwood and Langley City are designated and planned as future town centres. South Hill is not.

[ssiguy]

The East Hastings SkyTrain is a must but for access to the North Shore, there is a cheap alternative.

The Stanley Park Causeway is 100 year "perpetual lease" from the feds { Parks Canada} to the Parks Board. This means that in 2030, the lease is up but it can continue with the lease with PC as long as it wants with no renewal of a contract required but it doesn't have to. If the Park Board doesn't want to continue the perpetual lease, the causeway is closed. Obviously they are not going to shut it down and make the Lion's Gate an empty bridge but they could make the causeway a BRT only road with wide sidewalks and bike baths. It would make getting over the West/North Vancouver very fast & reliable, almost no construction, cost {quite literally} 1/100th the price, and have no interaction with other {except emergency} vehicles and could easily be up and running in 6 months.

Many may complain including City Hall and the people of West Van but it would be a Vancouver Park Board decision and I don't believe City Hall can override them, but correct me if I'm wrong on that point.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Wrong way around for most Vancouverites - downtown/Lonsdale is faster via SeaBus and Canada Line, and everything east of that is faster via the Second Narrows. BRT on the Lions Gate really only benefits the West End, Norgate/West Van and Horseshoe Bay commuters.

[jollyburger]

The lease is to the City of Vancouver and it's for the entire park.

https://vancouver.ca/files/cov/2018-128-release.pdf

And it was a 99 year lease that started in 1908 so it's already been "renewed". The 2030 date was for a closure of the causeway if they build a replacement crossing for the Lions Gate Bridge.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/lions-gate-bridge-close-vehicle-traffic-2030-government-agreement

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

"No bus lanes on the bridge," but the Burnaby Heights people have been complaining about possibly losing their parking lanes for months.

The bridge doesn't really need bus lanes for the Rapidbus to be successful, just add a queue jump lane for the Hastings on (and off?) ramp.