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  #1  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2021, 1:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
Chicago's inland location is not a disadvantage to immigrants; many inland cities attract immigrants, such as Minneapolis with Somalis and Chicago with Mexicans and South Asians in past decades. It will be interesting what the next decade brings - I would not be surprised if NYC and DC see a big slowdown in growth as those areas are also quite expensive for average working people.
I agree with this. That was a silly comment by Kittyhawk you had responded to, actually. There is no reason why having a coastal location today has any bearing on whether you attract more immigrants. Most people are not arriving by boats or by foot, but by airplane. Toronto’s inland location pretty much dispels that notion.

Also, prior to the last decade or two, Chicago was a huge immigration magnet for about 140 years. It’s midwestern location obviously didn’t hinder that. The recent slowdown almost certainly has to do with a decline in work opportunities for new immigrants.
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  #2  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2021, 1:48 PM
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As we're always discussing CSA vs MSA, I made a list with definitions trying to pick the best of them and also using last longing historical definitions.

It's just for entertainment, not intending to start long discussions about it. But if someone is interested on the definition used in a specific metro area, just ask. Starting with the traditional "Big 12":



--------------------- 2020 -------- 2010 -------- 2000 -------- 1990

New York -------- 22.692.839 -- 21.358.372 -- 20.675.403 -- 19.083.415 ---- 6,25% ---- 3,30% ---- 8,34%

Los Angeles ----- 18.644.680 -- 17.877.006 -- 16.373.645 -- 14.531.529 ---- 4,29% ---- 9,18% --- 12,68%

Chicago ---------- 9.618.502 --- 9.461.105 --- 9.098.314 --- 8.182.076 ---- 1,66% ---- 3,99% --- 11,20%

San Francisco ---- 8.036.501 --- 7.413.121 --- 7.039.362 --- 6.253.311 ---- 8,41% ---- 5,31% --- 12,57%

Dallas ----------- 7.320.577 --- 6.104.359 --- 4.942.333 --- 3.820.630 --- 19,92% --- 23,51% --- 29,36%

Houston ---------- 7.122.240 --- 5.920.416 --- 4.693.161 --- 3.750.883 --- 20,30% --- 26,15% --- 25,12%

Philadelphia ----- 6.245.051 --- 5.965.353 --- 5.687.147 --- 5.435.468 ---- 4,69% ---- 4,89% ---- 4,63%

Miami ------------ 6.138.333 --- 5.564.635 --- 5.007.564 --- 4.056.100 --- 10,31% --- 11,12% --- 23,46%

Boston ----------- 6.095.791 --- 5.628.532 --- 5.410.915 --- 5.075.440 ---- 8,30% ---- 4,02% ---- 6,61%

Atlanta ---------- 6.089.815 --- 5.286.728 --- 4.263.438 --- 3.082.308 --- 15,19% --- 24,00% --- 38,32%

Washington ------- 5.937.417 --- 5.241.643 --- 4.525.520 --- 3.920.943 --- 13,27% --- 15,82% --- 15,42%

Detroit ---------- 5.325.319 --- 5.218.852 --- 5.357.538 --- 5.095.695 ---- 2,04% --- -2,59% ---- 5,14%



I also worked with past and more strict definitions, which showed be metro areas are growing faster in their core counties.
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  #3  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2021, 2:19 PM
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- I guess we've discussed several subjects, such as New York growing faster than Los Angeles for the first time, which is very symbolic as LA becoming the most populated metro area in the US is something that have been discussed since the 1970's or earlier. New York growth itself is very impressive, almost matching the "perfect 1990-2000" and went against all way more modest estimates.

- Chicago, as New York, better than expected and actually grew. If the pull a New York on the next few years, they can finally become a megacity, which is quite symbolic as Chicago was once one of the largest cities in the world and the 2nd/3rd wealthiest. Side note: it's crazy to think Chicago had grown at double digit rates mere 20 years ago. I remember the reports of the booming counties in Chicago area in the early 2000's.

- Although expected, San Francisco is something out of this world: GDP growing at Chinese rates, growing faster than the past decade while the US as whole grew considerably slower, high prices and constrict geography should be playing against it, and still we have those 8% growth to reach 8 million inhabitants.

- Dallas and Houston, what to say? One thing it's when are below 4 million people (1990) to grow at 20%/decade. But they're about to reach 8 million and show no signs of slowing down.

- Five metro areas neck to neck at 6 million: Philadelphia, Miami, Boston, Atlanta and Washington.

- Philadelphia, with very constant and rather good growth in the past 30 years. That, coupled with its location just outside New York, urban regeneration and one of the best urban fabrics in the country, suggest a bright future ahead.

- Boston, like San Francisco: although expected, post amazing growth, even faster than the 1990-2000. Wealthy and fast growing, a powerful combo.

- Washington, pushed by the ever growing US government, solid and constant and big growth for the past 30 years. As Trump and Biden wanted/wants to pull back the US military, it might become a more normal metro area. I hope so at least.

- Atlanta slowing down census after censos, but still post impressive growth. And for the first time, the least denser urban area in the US might densify. Mine smaller definitions for Atlanta metro shows faster growth.

- Miami, for a long time, doesn't post Sun Belt kinda growth. After a very good 2000's for Latin America, 2010's were challenging, which is always good for Miami.

- And closing the "12", Detroit has recovered. Estimates were suggesting that and the Census confirmed. The expected/hoped end in Detroit (city) declined didn't happen despite all the activity in their Downtown/Midtown.

I'll post more metro areas later.
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  #4  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 1:32 PM
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Philadelphia grew by almost 80K residents or 5.1% (back to) over 1.6MM people. If you were to walk or drive through nearly any part of Philadelphia, including what would be the most (traditionally) disinvested parts of the city, you will see construction literally everywhere.

I'd argue it's probably still and undercount of 25k or more residents. There are individual neighborhoods that have 5,000 or more housing units under construction in or in the construction pipeline.

It's totally impressive.

Each county in Southeast PA grew by 5-10+%. While every county in other parts of the state with the exception of 3 in the Pittsburgh area and a handful of others shrunk by 5-10% or more.

Hopefully this helps to shift the balance of power in the state as more and more of our legislative districts are created in SE PA and others are eliminated and consolidated in the remainder of the state.

Overall the state added between only 300 and 400K people in the last decade, but the southeastern counties added roughly 600K people to their population counts. This means the rest of the state lost about 300K folks.

The same can be said of New York and New Jersey. People think of them as reliably blue states but there are large swaths of red in far south Jersey and Northern New York. The explosive growth in and around NYC, including in North Jersey, will shift legislative boundaries to more liberal areas.

The talk has been about Republicans gerrymandering the hell out of urban areas to try to eliminate seats for Democrats, but part of me doesn't see how that is possible (I know they'll try) given how nearly all the growth has been in and around cities. Even in more conservative Sunbelt states, how can you gerrymander Dallas county when it adds another 600K reliably Democratic voters? I don't know Texas politics well but part of me believes the shenangins there are actually being driven by the fact that Republicans in TX know that after the redistricting process it's going to consolidate more and more power in liberal counties with explosive growth like Dallas, Tarrant, Travis, Harris, Collin, and Denton. The rural areas of Texas (with a few exceptions) are shrinking just like they are everywhere else.
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  #5  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 2:03 PM
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For some reason, perhaps it was political in the 2010 Census -- East Honolulu (the most conservative area in the City) was separated from Honolulu's original CDP (Census Designated Place) but if it were kept the same (pre-2010) it would have finally passed the 400K mark at 401,886 (+14,716) in 2020. The new CDP (without East Honolulu) was 350,964 in 2020 up 13,708.
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  #6  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 2:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kittyhawk28 View Post
2020 Census Population Figures for the Top 5 Most Populous CSA's:

New York-Newark, NY-NJ-CT-PA Combined Statistical Area:
2020: 23,582,679
2010: 22,255,491
Change: +1,327,188 (+5.96%)

Los Angeles-Long Beach, CA Combined Statistical Area
2020: 18,644,680
2010: 17,877,006
Change: +767,674 (+4.29%)

Chicago-Naperville, IL-IN-WI Combined Statistical Area
2020: 9,986,960
2010: 9,840,929
Change: +146,031 (+1.48%)

Washington-Baltimore-Arlington, DC-MD-VA-WV-PA Combined Statistical Area
2020: 9,973,383
2010: 9,050,192
Change: +923,191 (+10.20%)

San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA Combined Statistical Area
2020: 9,720,023
2010: 8,923,942
Change: +796,081 (+8.92%)

Commentary:
To start off, the New York Metro area defied premature predictions of its decline, growing an astounding 1.3 million people in the past decade, which in terms of numerical growth puts it on the level of growth Dallas or Houston metro areas experience. What's more interesting is how concentrated this population growth was in the metro area: New York City proper grew by 630,000 people alone between 2010-2020, accounting for about half of the entire metro area's growth. This is in contrast to other metro areas, where population growth is far more concentrated in the suburbs. A caveat however, is that this is likely due to the Census Bureau discovering 265,000 housing units that had been missing from the bureau’s list, and not all neccesarily of it due to new growth during the past decade

For Los Angeles, it experienced a major slowdown in population growth in the 2010-20 decade. Before the 2010's, Greater LA had been the fastest-growing metro area in the US by numerical growth for decades, growing 1.5 million people between 2000 and 2010, compared to New York's growth of a 700K during the same decade. This decade, in contrast, LA's growth halved to just 767,674 new residents. Arguably, the prime cause of this population slowdown is the ballooning housing costs in the region, and California in general, often as a result of local housing restrictions constraining housing supply, despite the growth in jobs; in the last decade, for every 5 jobs that LA has gains, it builds only 1 new home. Thus, it will be interesting to see if recent escalation in actions by the state housing department against local housing restrictions, such as imposing mandatory zoning quotas for at least 1.3 million new housing units (for possibly 3 million new potential residents) for the Greater LA region by 2029, will reverse this slowdown. With the massive rail infrastructure expansions coming online for the 2028 Olympics in the coming decade, LA also has great potential to transform itself and embrace urban densification growth in the coming years, similar to how NYC has done last decade.

Chicago's results for the 2020 census also surprised expectations; where the metro region was expected to show a big population decline in the census, it still grew by almost 150 thousand new residents. Still, Chicago faces challenges which LA or NYC do not; unlike these two metro regions, Chicago lies inland, isolated from the coasts. This makes it harder for Chicago to attract immigrants to its region relative to NYC or LA. Chicago's weather also does it no favor, with the heavy winter weather helping to cause huge outflows of its residents to warmer sunbelt states. Other broader historical factors and trends, such as the general decline in heavy industry in the US, has also hurt Chicago's appeal, with declining industrial jobs and the shuttering of its once-massive steel industries. In any case, Chicago has for a while been the slowest growing out of the top 5 US metro areas, and had it not grown at all during the 2010's, the DC-Baltimore area would have overtaken it.

The DC-Baltimore metro area experienced very fast growth between 2010 and 2020, growing by over 900,000 people, and with the greatest percentage growth out of the 5 biggest metro areas. This is likely driven by the rapid increase in corporate presence in the region, most particularly in aerospace and defense companies. Companies such as Lockheed Martin, Northrup Grumman, Raytheon, among others, have expanded their corporate presences in the metro area, in order to be closer to the political center of the country. Furthermore, the region has attracted tech companies to increase their presence in the region. The most notable is Amazon, which is planning to built its "HQ2" campus in Crystal City, Virginia, a subcenter of the DC metropolitan area.

The San Francisco Bay Area's population growth is pretty self-explanatory. The explosive growth in digital tech firms during the 2010's definitely fueled rapid growth in the Bay Area, centered around the area known as Silicon Valley (a moniker less accurate these days, as semiconductor production has largely relocated to Asia and Oregon/Arizona away from the Bay Area). But in any case, the region faces much of the same problems that Greater Los Angeles faces: spiralling housing costs. The average cost of a home in San Francisco has now reached $1.5 million, with prices in other parts of the region ballooning as a result of the tech boom. While chatter of a major exodus from the Bay Area and California is largely overrated (judging by the census figures), the underlying trend of lower-income and working class people being priced out and forced to relocate to far-off exurbs, or simply move out of the region altogether. There is a growing trend of super-commutes in the Bay Area; many workers are relocating to once sleepy towns such as Tracy and Stockton (hours inland from the Bay Area) in order to take advantage of cheaper housing costs. Then again, like LA, it will be interesting to see if the Bay Area can wrestle back its exploding housing costs. Like with LA, the State of California has imposed a zoning mandate for about 440,000 new housing units for cities in the Bay Area over the next decade.
Quality post!
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  #7  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 3:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittyhawk28 View Post

San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA Combined Statistical Area
2020: 9,720,023
2010: 8,923,942
Change: +796,081 (+8.92%)
Thank you for the exact numbers.

I have been tracking the growth of the traditional 9-county Bay Area and surrounding 15 counties for many years because I consider these counties the region's commuter shed-so far, 5 outside counties(Pop 1.9 million) have been merged into the Bay Area and now the area borders Fresno, which is insane, but the requirements are met so here we are.

So the 2010s represents the 7th decade in a row that the Bay Area and Greater Area grew by 1 million+.

Bay Area CSA+Surrounding 10 Counties:
2020: 12,999,653
2010: 11,906,297
Change: +1,093,356 (+9.18%)
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  #8  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 3:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dimondpark View Post
Thank you for the exact numbers.

I have been tracking the growth of the traditional 9-county Bay Area and surrounding 15 counties for many years because I consider these counties the region's commuter shed-so far, 5 outside counties(Pop 1.9 million) have been merged into the Bay Area and now the area borders Fresno, which is insane, but the requirements are met so here we are.

So the 2010s represents the 7th decade in a row that the Bay Area and Greater Area grew by 1 million+.

Bay Area CSA+Surrounding 10 Counties:
2020: 12,999,653
2010: 11,906,297
Change: +1,093,356 (+9.18%)
I like the older CSA definition better, without the added Central Valley counties. It reached 9 million inh., with a solid 8.5% growth, faster than the national average.
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  #9  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 10:57 AM
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Have the urban area populations been released or computed?
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  #10  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 11:33 AM
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^ London is going to shrink due to Brexit.

And anyway, the city proper population comparison is quite meaningless given London is almost twice the size of NYC (610 square miles vs 350 square miles). In metro area terms, NYC has been much larger than London for some time.

Chicago is about to go from 3rd to 5th largest US metro.
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  #11  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post

Chicago is about to go from 3rd to 5th largest US metro.
Only at the CSA level, which is more of a regional measure than a true "metro area".

At the MSA level and UA level, Chicagoland is still comfortably in 3rd place, and will be for some time to come.

In any event, Chicago's CSA was already supposed to slide to 5th place going by census estimates that had it shrinking, but it's surprise growth kept it ever so barely at 3rd for one more census.
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  #12  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 2:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
^ London is going to shrink due to Brexit.

And anyway, the city proper population comparison is quite meaningless given London is almost twice the size of NYC (610 square miles vs 350 square miles). In metro area terms, NYC has been much larger than London for some time.

Chicago is about to go from 3rd to 5th largest US metro.
NYC city proper is actually about 300 sq. miles. So Greater London is slightly more than twice the physical size.

Anyways, the two aren't apples-apples comparable. Greater London isn't a municipality, it's a region, and a huge chunk of Greater London's geography is suburban, and more like the Home Counties. If Bronxville or Montclair or Great Neck were in the UK, they'd probably be in Greater London.

And it's really metro areas that define city size. "NY" has been more populous than "London" since probably the 1920's-1930's or thereabouts.
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  #13  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 2:30 PM
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And it's really metro areas that define city size. "NY" has been more populous than "London" since probably the 1920's-1930's or thereabouts.
Yeah, New York overtook London as the largest urban area in the world in the 1920s. Tokyo overtook New York in the 1960s and still holds the title today.
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  #14  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 3:11 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Yeah, New York overtook London as the largest urban area in the world in the 1920s. Tokyo overtook New York in the 1960s and still holds the title today.
The Pearl River Delta is arguably a single metro, with a population of about 80 million.
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  #15  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 3:18 PM
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The Pearl River Delta is arguably a single metro, with a population of about 80 million.
It's more like a CSA than a Metro Area.
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Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 2:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
NYC city proper is actually about 300 sq. miles. So Greater London is slightly more than twice the physical size.

Anyways, the two aren't apples-apples comparable. Greater London isn't a municipality, it's a region, and a huge chunk of Greater London's geography is suburban, and more like the Home Counties. If Bronxville or Montclair or Great Neck were in the UK, they'd probably be in Greater London.

And it's really metro areas that define city size. "NY" has been more populous than "London" since probably the 1920's-1930's or thereabouts.
With NYC, if we add the small county of Hudson County in NJ, it swells to easily over 9 million. Given how intertwined they both are, the figures really start to add up once we factor the cities along the Hudson on the Jersey side.
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  #17  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 3:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
NYC city proper is actually about 300 sq. miles. So Greater London is slightly more than twice the physical size.

Anyways, the two aren't apples-apples comparable. Greater London isn't a municipality, it's a region, and a huge chunk of Greater London's geography is suburban, and more like the Home Counties. If Bronxville or Montclair or Great Neck were in the UK, they'd probably be in Greater London.

And it's really metro areas that define city size. "NY" has been more populous than "London" since probably the 1920's-1930's or thereabouts.
London region has been consistently growing much faster for the past 25 years though. And in a given radius (100km), London had already surpassed New York, reversing the mentioned 1930's tookover.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
The Pearl River Delta is arguably a single metro, with a population of about 80 million.
Pearl River Delta has 60 million inh. (2020 Census) and it's more a collection of metropolitan areas (Guangzhou-Fuzhou, Shenzhen) than a single one.
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  #18  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 3:22 PM
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London region has been consistently growing much faster for the past 25 years though. And in a given radius (100km), London had already surpassed New York, reversing the mentioned 1930's tookover.
London's 100km still doesn't quite overtake NY's according to the population finder tool. But it also includes a lot of non-London area, while NY's includes a lot of ocean.
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  #19  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 3:35 PM
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London's 100km still doesn't quite overtake NY's according to the population finder tool. But it also includes a lot of non-London area, while NY's includes a lot of ocean.
In any case this gap used to be much wider few decades ago.

Even though New York sprawl is massive, engulfing rural/exurb counties far far away, London is very well connected by transit with its satellites cities. As the population in Southeast England keeps growing fast, Green Belt been relaxed, the lines between London and those satellites will become increasingly more blurred.
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Old Posted Aug 13, 2021, 4:20 PM
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