Hamilton Votes 2008

[SteelTown]

I'm not a Liberal member. Personally I'm a progressive kind of person, socially liberal but fiscally conservative. Most of the time it ends up that the Liberals are socially liberal and fiscally conservative, especially Paul Martin.

If the PC party was still around I certainly would take them serious.

[BrianE]

Well 2 of my 3 big election issues have been covered by one party.

1. Energy Policy - Green Shift - Check

2. Infrastructure funding commitments - check

3. Arctic Soverignty - dunno yet

The Greens are covering the same issues as the Libs but why vote for them when the Libs actualy have a chance to govern.

[raisethehammer]

I'm amazed that people actually believe this stuff.
I've always wondered why these parties go around lying during campaigns tossing out promises left, right and centre that they have no intentions of keeping.
Now I know.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I'm really enjoying this discourse. I have to (hold your breath) defend RTH a little here--it would seem to me that branding Dion "a clown" is no more offensive than some of the things I've read in regard to the Prime Minister--none of which raised the ire of the intelligentsia the way an off-hand remark about Dion did.

I recommend (again, hold your breath) a healthy dose of CBC's election coverage. The network which is the only media outlet more wildly skewed left than the Toronto Star cannot even seem to make sense of Dion's "leadership"--while the "policy wonk" theory may hold some water--Harper is a policy-side operative also--but he's become more comfortable over the years--whereas Dion has taken to wearing aviator glasses and hanging off of Bob Rae and Michael Ignatieff in an attempt to work some magic out of what is a decidely lackluster campaign (have a look at their rally turnouts thusfar). The infrastructure announcement yesterday is the most glaring evidence yet that the Liberal internal polling is showing a stall--no traction. Up until now M. Dion was telling us that his party was prepared to stand or fall on GreenShift...now we have a $70 billion committment to invest in--among other things--new roads. Interesting "shift" indeed...especially when out of the other corner of his mouth he's saying our economy is collapsing and we have no money and people are taking to the streets with swords and torches...now suddenly there is $70 billion to rebuild the infrastructure that 13 years of Liberal rule decimated by way of reduced provincial transfers (conveniently fleshing out the federal surplus).

On the much earlier post suggesting anglo-xenophobes 'fear' M. Dion's limited English language abilities--I think this is an empty accusation. English Canadians need to be able to understand their candidates--that's a simple fact. Moreover, in no way, shape or form would (or should) francophone Quebeckers ever tolerate a national leader without an appropriate command of their language...Dion's election as party leader still shocks me, even after all this time.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

On the much earlier post suggesting anglo-xenophobes 'fear' M. Dion's limited English language abilities--I think this is an empty accusation. English Canadians need to be able to understand their candidates--that's a simple fact. Moreover, in no way, shape or form would (or should) francophone Quebeckers ever tolerate a national leader without an appropriate command of their language...Dion's election as party leader still shocks me, even after all this time.

Interesting comparison, considering Harper's command of French is roughly the equivalent of Dion's command of English. Personally, I think the entire 'communications gap' is overstated by his political enemies. I have heard Dion speak several times and never had a problem understanding him - and trust me I have no command for languages beyond English. I find him honest and forthright, not one to simply repeat prerehearsed sound bites. He may not be showy or flamboyant, but I know I can trust him.

By the way the anglo-xenophobes do not fear Dion - they hate him. And I find it to be very disturbing xenophobic behaviour. I recently witnessed someone say that they refuse to have another 'damn Frenchman' running this country. That kind of sentiment disturbs me because a person's ability is being prejudiced by ethnicity. What kind of society do we live in where someone's birthright is a qualifier for politics? And that is the elephant in the room no one wants to acknowledge. Be it prejudicial attitudes towards francophones or aboriginals, you don't have to scartch the surface very deeply to witness the wormy bigotry still creeping below the surface of our land.

And, before more rash accusations start flying, I am not referencing anyone on here when I speak of anglo-xenophobes. But I do promise to point them out quickly and clearly should they surface.

[raisethehammer]

fastcars...you took the words right out of my mouth - I was going to suggest that everyone watch the National on CBC each night. Awesome coverage.
I know the private media still likes to pound home the old 'leftist-CBC' image in the public's mind, but as one who watches the National 3-4 times a week over the past 5 years I can assure you that they've been harder on the Liberals than anyone else during that time. NDP is next - Layton came off looking stupid and conflicted during their session with him the other day. Mansbridge and the viewers kept hammering away at him.
They aren't necessarily pro-conservative, but they at least recognize a better run campaign and consistent message from that party.
Their 'At Issue' panel might be the best political TV in Canada, aside from Steve Paikin and 'The Agenda' on TVO.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I would argue that Harper's command of French, while imperfect, benefits from a clarity of pronunciation if nothing else. The latest I heard from the Dion camp is that he has a hearing problem which prevents him from "reproducing" English sounds. It may be that Dion is indeed forthright and not given to sticking to message-tracks--does this explain why he has all but stopped talking and turned that task over to Mr. Ignatieff and Mr. Rae? While the cynical may have a distaste for message-tracking, I caution that being "forthright" often translates into soundbites such as that of Ms. Campbell in 1993 saying (plainly, honestly) that the recession was not over and unemployment would likely stay high for awhile--that was very forthright and much to the delight of M. Chretien and his empty redbook.

Xenophobia is not positive--and I don't defend it. Nonetheless, there is no elephant in the room--and trying to play the "race" card in defense of Mr. Dion is nothing short of race/language-baiting. Considering M. Trudeau, Mr. Mulroney, M. Chretien and Mr. Martin all were Quebeckers, and 50% of them were francophones would suggest to me that any "bias" against Quebeckers/Francophones in federal politics is an utter fantasy. In fact, with the possible exception of Mr. Mulroney, they all enjoyed their greatest popularity in Ontario.

In reference to RTH, I give CBC SOME credit for exercising the leftist demons from The National. At Issue is an excellent segment and their coverage is comprehensive. CBC remains wildly left, but at the very least, some balance has come to The National. Now, I will take you to task over your comments about the private media in this country. We have a single right-leaning national paper, and that's about it. The Toronto Star is unabashedly liberal/Liberal and Canwest, despite it's control of The National Post, is a speaker box for Liberal politics thanks to the Aspers. Most everything Steve Paikin touches is gold--and he always impressed me back in the Studio 2 era, with the balanced approach he took in the provincial political realm of the 1990s.

As for Layton--I was actually laughing out loud at his "Your Turn" appearance with Mansbridge--he was utterly unable to answer any of the viewer questions (not even by message-track) and was flip-flopping and contradicting himself within his own soundbites--it was actually painful to watch. Nonetheless, the core NDP voters are generally left-of-centre idealogues and will stay loyal. Truth be told, I thought Mansbridge let him off pretty easy, but again, Jack was generally pretty skilled at stringing himself up with the rope provided. This country has yet to have anyone fill Frum's shoes--that woman was a pirranah.

[raisethehammer]

yea, that Layton segment was brutal. I almost felt bad for the guy. Just hang it up and give someone else a shot at running the party.

[adam]

Is anyone else interested in sovreignty in a broader context? The Arctic is only a small part. What about trade and economic sovreignty? What about sovreignty with the Alaska border? The Conservatives are ignoring these issues because their views on them would scare people.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I'd be curious as to what exactly you are eluding to Adam. The Conservatives have made a clear committment to arctic soverignty. What exactly do you suggest in terms of trade and economic soverignty? As for the Alaska border--do you have information on breaches of soverignty in this area? You seem very concerned about these issues--perhaps you might consider the committment the current government has made to the Canada Border Services Agency--which is in part responsible for front-line soverignty. Previous governments actually fought the Agency's attempts to broaden and strengthen it's mandate.

[raisethehammer]

the Conservatives only have one reason for protecting the Arctic - so they can blow it to smitherines and export the black greasy stuff to the Yanks.
Great vision for our beautiful, world-renowned north.

[DC83]

^^ Not that I support that platform, but if we don't someone else will.

It kills me to say that as an environmentalist/urbanist/Liberal/War Hater, but it's the truth.

Although setting up armes is never the answer, we need to lay claim to our Arctic! It's OUR land!

[fastcarsfreedom]

Quote
export the black greasy stuff to the Yanks.

Ah, yes, the Americans. Too bad Carolyn Parrish wasn't still around for you. It amazes me the degree to which anti-American sentiment still permeates this country. Of course, some tar sands oil goes to the U.S.--of course, we use it too. Several parts of Southern Ontario also "export" hundreds of trucks full of trash to the U.S. everyday--including the largest city in the country.

Arctic soverignty is an important issue for a host of reasons--of which resource control is merely one. As suggested by DC83, perhaps it would be preferrable for the Russians to control/pillage our north.

[the dude]

arctic sovereignty's an interesting topic. whether we're talking about canada or israel or china, few countries have a legitimate claim to the lands they inhabit. if you want it you take it. along those lines, what or who is going to stop the russians from annexing 'our' arctic lands? us? ya right. this ain't WWII. the world's gonna get uglier in the coming years and there are going to be a number of countries knocking at our door. they might ask nicely at first but the hurt will come. i don't have an answer to our arctic sovereignty issues except to say that our ability to actually prevent another country from moving in is limited.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Quote
export the black greasy stuff to the Yanks.

Ah, yes, the Americans. Too bad Carolyn Parrish wasn't still around for you. It amazes me the degree to which anti-American sentiment still permeates this country. Of course, some tar sands oil goes to the U.S.--of course, we use it too. Several parts of Southern Ontario also "export" hundreds of trucks full of trash to the U.S. everyday--including the largest city in the country.

Arctic soverignty is an important issue for a host of reasons--of which resource control is merely one. As suggested by DC83, perhaps it would be preferrable for the Russians to control/pillage our north.

Your usual refrain whenever someone mentions a simple fact about the US.
Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge their oil addiction and willingness to destroy any land or country that stands in their way of getting it?? This is not new. You act as though it is.

[bornagainbiking]

Do you need a Liberal party card to post here.
So really what is so wrong about the last couple years that Canada had any real control over. Lots of this is global issues.
I think Harper is OK, but I am bias I have a picture of my best man standing with Mr. Harper in Afghanistan less then a week after he was elected. He was dining with the troops in the mess halls the lowly grunts. First thing he did. Don't really see him trapsing around the globe unless he has to and wasting $$$$$, I seem to recall he has been atttacked on several occasions for not travelling, like the Olympics.
Can't recall too many visits from the Liberals even when I was in.
As for the defence of Canada, it could get ugly and we have the fresh water, oil and land so we have to be aware of other's envy or greed.
It seems that the Liberals and NDP sure are promising alot and to pay for this where is the money coming from the liberal party or NDP Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, you and me, Bud the taxpayer, they ain't giving us nothing for nothing. Wake up we will pay for it.
The Conservitives are not sugar coating nothing. Tax breaks.
I just don't get it, people talk about Harper as a Demon what has he done against Canada really. Said he would cut the GST and did chop chop...
I believe that was an unfulfilled liberal promise, just ask Sheila.
Gave us a tax break on bus passes. Is equiping our army with proper equipment. Tries to get along with our weird southern neighbour.
Funny I tell my kids you don't have to like your neighbour but you have to be polite and respectful until they start something, so many people are yank bashing. The americans get enough of that from the rest of the world. The Brits and Aussie treat them better then us. if you hate them so much stop shopping in Buffalo or running to Disney World.
We need a leader to steer the ship and I just can't see Dion with the Captain's cap. With him it may be a Three hour tour with Gilligan.
Harper's goventment sure is quick to send aid not money to areas in need like Haiti, Lebanon and Gustav.
The liberals were great for sending bundles (millions) of money to third world nations to ease our guilt and then on an annual basis forgive the debt. Where did that money come from (our taxes). The NDP just want to spen spend spend but they can't tell us where this dough will come from???????
Remember: Any surplus is just overtaxation and should stay in my wallet.......

[bornagainbiking]

Promises promises
CONSERVATIVES
-- A two-cent-per-litre cut in taxes on diesel and aviation fuel over four years. $600 million a year once fully implemented.


-- Reinstate veterans' benefits for Second World War veterans who have lived in Canada for more than 10 years; $9 million a year.


-- A near-complete withdrawal of Canadian troops from Afghanistan in 2011.


-- Allow 49 per cent foreign ownership of airlines and foreign ownership of uranium mines.


-- Maternity, parental leave benefits for entrepreneurs who pay into EI. $150 million annually, financed by EI premiums.


-- Tax credit for first-time homebuyers to claim up to $5,000 in closing costs for a rebate of up to $750. $200 million a year, fully implemented.


-- Ban kid-friendly flavours and additives from tobacco products and require cigarillos to be sold in packages of at least 20. No cost provided.


-- Increase the Senior Age Credit by $1,000, saving those in the lowest tax-paying income bracket about $150 a year. $400 million a year.

GREENS

-- A Guaranteed Livable Income supplement for the poor. No cost provided.


-- Forgive 50 per cent of student loans for successful graduates. No cost provided.


-- More money and research grants for post-secondary institutions that focus on renewable energy and conservation. No cost provided.


-- Shift consumption taxes to environmentally harmful products and services and away from income and products, activities that do no harm. No cost provided.


-- Cut corporate tax by $50 for each tonne of carbon-emission reductions. No cost provided.

LIBERALS

-- "Green Shift" carbon tax on fossil fuels, offset by income and business tax cuts. Billed by Liberals as revenue-neutral.


-- Add $350 to existing $1,200-a-year child-care allowance. Additional payment of up to $1,225 a year for low-income families. No cost provided.


-- Restore the Court Challenges Program and double budget to $6 million a year.


-- $50 million to upgrade Canada's food safety system.


-- $600 million in energy retrofit tax breaks for homeowners.


-- More robust energy efficiency standards for building codes and home appliances.


-- $250 million over four years to curb the spread of the mountain pine beetle.


-- $250 million to modernize and "green" fishing vessels and protect fish stocks in Canadian and international waters.


-- $100 million to improve Canada's small-craft harbours.


-- Retire commercial fishing licences in areas where fish stocks have collapsed. No cost provided.


-- $900 million over four years to create a new plan for catastrophic drug coverage.


-- $500 million more a year for university-based research and a $100-million research fund for scientists, researchers and grad students.


-- 200,000 student bursaries of up to $3,500 per year over four years, and guaranteed eligibility for $5,000 student loans, regardless of parental income.


-- National daycare program with 165,000 spaces. $1.25 billion a year, fully implemented.


-- $70 billion over 10 years for municipal infrastructure.

NDP

-- A moratorium on expansion of Alberta's tarsands and requiring oil companies to reclaim land strip mined for petroleum production. No cost provided.


-- $8.2 billion over four years to create, protect and foster growth of "green-collar" jobs and manufacturing.


-- A "cap-and-trade" system to create incentives for big business to reduce their emissions. No cost provided.


-- Slash greenhouse gas emissions by 80 per cent by 2050. No cost provided.


-- A price-monitoring agency to investigate price spikes and consult with provinces about regulations. No cost provided.


-- Cap credit-card interest rates at five per cent over prime.


-- Outlaw automated banking machine fees, saving consumers at least $104 per year.


-- $120 million a year in additional funding for women's groups.


-- $1 billion over five years to expand medical and nursing schools, increasing the number of student spaces by 50 per cent.


-- $125 million a year to forgive student loans for medical-school grads who spend 10 years as family physicians.


-- $100 million for skills training and job creation.


-- Comprehensive review of Canadian banking regulations. No cost provided.


-- A national daycare program, enshrined in law, with 150,000 spaces in the first year. $1.4 billion a year at first, growing to estimated $2.2 billion.


-- Home-care program for seniors. $250 million in the first year growing to $1 billion a year by Year 4.

[raisethehammer]

gee, that's a good list. I wish I could pick and choose various ideas from each party and put them all together.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Quote
Your usual refrain whenever someone mentions a simple fact about the US

The usual refrain is actually yours. While you are quick to call out others for being drones and slaves to "the message" from media--you fail to recognize that several generations of Canadian politicians who have used Anti-Americanism as a wedge issue have actually led you down the path--a walk you and many other Canadians have willingly made. Your gross generalizations about Americans and "their" oil addiction is not well-reasoned and conveniently ignores the fact that the explosion in fossil fuel demand comes from elsewhere in the world--and seems to suggest we heat our homes and fuel our cars with something other than oil.

Quote
This is not new. You act as though it is

On another note, I have just read through the afore-posted listed of so-called "promises" and find it interesting that Elizabeth May--who's bleating to be heard and has been included in the leaders' debate via her own self-importance has the audacity to release a platform that is mostly uncosted--the first item, the "guaranteed livability supplement" is a jaw-dropper--even the most idealistic voter would have trouble swallowing that -- it's inclusion is actually an insult to anyone born with basic reasoning skills.

I act as though this is new? On the contrary it's really, really, old.

[raisethehammer]

find me another nation on earth that uses as much oil per capita as the US. China's billion people are close, but no cigar.
I make my observations from plain old common sense and years of watching them ruin other nations with oil-wars.
They refuse to look for easy alternatives like solar and wind to meet some of their energy needs as well as good old fashioned conservation (that's like a horrendous curse word in that wasteful nation).
You can hide behind rhetoric all you want. it doesn't change the facts.