Edmonton Public Transit

[newfangled]

Originally Posted by JAH

I think Millwoods should be considered before any outlying areas like Sherwood Park, St Albert, etc. I agree with a few on here that ridership might not be too great with the higher incomes in these surrounding communities. And as I stated before.. Millwoods on the other hand, has a demographics that is ideal for LRT usage.

WLRT x2. It already has TOD's, but without the T.

WLRT and SELRT should be much, much, much higher priorities than booniesLRT.

And the NELRT extension? It might make things more convenient for people out by 167ave, but is it actually going to increase ridership? They already have reasonable access to the LRT (better than 99% of the rest of the city, currently). If they want to take LRT they probably already do. That extension might be cheap, but it's also totally into the realm of diminishing returns.

[mcc16]

I just found the other thread talking about the new 5 billion dollar plan (why was that not posted in here instead?)

Anyways, it mentions that transit to outside the city will probably not happen for ten years. I think this is a good time line for this construction. I'm not opposed to the LRT ever going outside edmontons borders, but i think the focus should be on connecting all communities within edmonton first. Millwoods and the west end being the most important.

I am torn when it comes to the NE expansion because the main point of this expansion will just be to add a park and ride facility. This is needed, but i'm wondering if there would be away to expand the line to reduce the need for park and ride facilities in the first place.

[JAH]

Kind of a crazy suggestion here, but will we ever see LRT going to Whyte Ave? Probably not needed?

[Mikemike]

Originally Posted by newfangled

And the NELRT extension? It might make things more convenient for people out by 167ave, but is it actually going to increase ridership? They already have reasonable access to the LRT (better than 99% of the rest of the city, currently). If they want to take LRT they probably already do. That extension might be cheap, but it's also totally into the realm of diminishing returns.

I can think of a few reasons why the NE extention might work.

1. It's very cheap compared to any other extentions, including the S extention. Of course, that's not enough.

2. The city has grown out 30 blocks past Clairview, and is projected to continue growing in that direction.

3. There is no reasonable location for a new transit centre up that way, and if there were a new transit centre without LRT and a transfer were forced ridership would fall.

4. There may not be any additional space for busses at Clairview. Access to the station is also not Ideal.

5. Allowing riders to transfer to LRT as early in their ride as possible could save $ on operating as LRT is more efficient (assuming there are enough riders out that far) Bus routes would be shorter, potentially allowing better service with fewer busses/drivers.

That said, I think the reason that this will be done first and WLRT, SELRT later is because they can build quickly with far less planning, consultation and cost.

[JAH]

With all the upgraders soon to be developed in the far NE, thats another reason for a NELRT expansion

[240glt]

Kind of a crazy suggestion here, but will we ever see LRT going to Whyte Ave? Probably not needed?

I think ideally they should run the high level trolley year round.

[Mikemike]

Originally Posted by JAH

Kind of a crazy suggestion here, but will we ever see LRT going to Whyte Ave? Probably not needed?

I think that after the current round of building (WLRT, NLRT, SELRT, NE & S extentions, ?) we will have a good core system, and the next few projects will be commuter rail type, to Stony, spruce, Fort, Leduc?? and Streetcar type LRT.

I think that a University-Bonnydoon streetcar would be an excellent addition, and would be a valuable link from the SE line to the S & W lines.

[Mikemike]

Originally Posted by JAH

With all the upgraders soon to be developed in the far NE, thats another reason for a NELRT expansion

It's interesting that while the paper has repeated that NELRT would eventually go to Fort Sask., the current favoured option diverges from the cheap and accesible CN ROW to F.S. in favour of being central to edmonton's prospective new NE expansion.

Of course, growth in the NE will be encouraged by Upgrader alley development.

[JAH]

Need an expensive answer for late night transporation on Whyte? Hello LRT!

[noodlenoodle]

Originally Posted by Mikemike

I think that after the current round of building (WLRT, NLRT, SELRT, NE & S extentions, ?) we will have a good core system, and the next few projects will be commuter rail type, to Stony, spruce, Fort, Leduc?? and Streetcar type LRT.

I think that a University-Bonnydoon streetcar would be an excellent addition, and would be a valuable link from the SE line to the S & W lines.

I'd love to see streetcars once we've built out the LRT. My own personal top 3 lines would be:

University - Bonnie Doon
Museum - Jasper & 109 ST (Ideally Old Strathcona, but the Province would need to give up the High Level Bridge)
Century Park - Millwoods Town Centre (assuming SELRT is a seperate line and not a spur from CP)

[newfangled]

Originally Posted by JAH

With all the upgraders soon to be developed in the far NE, thats another reason for a NELRT expansion

It's really not though. Upgraders don't need LRT. They're not like retail or office or even light industrial work.

They will work on regimented, predicatable shifts - whether it's during construction or once they're up and operating. And that means that LRT to upgrader alley will be empty 99% of the time.

Why bother with all of the costs of an LRT line when you could provide the exact same service by shuttling people in/out with buses.

There will be some commuter potential, but anywhere else - St. Albert, Sherwood Park, even Nisku - would be better. And as an added bonus we make it easier for people to live in Ft. Sask instead of Edmonton. Whoo.

[Mikemike]

Originally Posted by noodlenoodle

I'd love to see streetcars once we've built out the LRT. My own personal top 3 lines would be:

University - Bonnie Doon
Museum - Jasper & 109 ST (Ideally Old Strathcona, but the Province would need to give up the High Level Bridge)
Century Park - Millwoods Town Centre (assuming SELRT is a seperate line and not a spur from CP)

Other good option-
118ave From Nait to Abbotsfield (#8 bus)

And:
Any combination of commercial innercity streets. (107Ave, 111Ave, 95St, 124St, 118Ave W, Stony plain Rd, 97St or 101St, 109 St.

North Side Crosstown from belvedere on 127Ave or 134 Ave.

[newfangled]

I really like the streetcar idea. My dream route is from 124st to 95st, along either 107/105/103/100Ave. It would link Oliver, downtown and Jasper East, with a possible jog over to the university (if the High Level tracks could be sorted out)

Conceptually though, what advantage does a streetcar provide along that route (or along 118ave, or CP>SEC>MWT, or wherever) that can't be accomplished with buses?

Because honestly, I think that I just wish that buses made more sense.

Give me a key bus on every major route. If I'm at the U and need to get to Whyte let me know that THIS is the bus I should take, and that it's going to run every 10 minutes. Give it distinctive numbering, or fancy livery, or whatever. I don't want to have to mess with buslink or schedules.

But then again, buses are the most unsexy invention ever and even if they made sense I probably wouldn't take them. But my own personal desire to replace them with streetcars almost seems like more of a problem of branding/marketing than of people-moving.

[Mikemike]

Sure, streetcar's advantages are mostly esthetic, subjective and irrational, and the increased ridership that those intangible factors create. Not one of our dreamworld Streetcar routs couldn't be handled with a bus (or trolleybus) route, but I'm sure that any one of these routes would do attract better ridership as a streetcar, and attract more and better development.

[noodlenoodle]

I'll admit, my fondness for the streetcar idea isn't one grounded entirely in facts and figures. It's an aesthetic thing, a vibe thing, a sense of tying an area together into a union based around that "certain something". Yes, the people moving aspect could be done with busses, but then it's just another bus route, even if it's a special "core" bus route as proposed by newfangled.

[newfangled]

Don't get me wrong - I hate buses. And I love the idea of streetcars. But everytime I think of how much better my life would be with streetcars, I realize that I honestly probably wouldn't use streetcars either.

The only time that I do take the bus is if there's a torrential downpour in the morning (since office HVAC is not designed to cope with that). And the three times I've done it I've been struck by how much bus service along Jasper is like Streetcar service.

At 124st the bus is mostly empty with plenty of seats. By the time it hits 116st it's basically standing-room only. And then by 101st it's mostly empty again. So a huge portion of the riders are using it like a streetcar for short trips of 6-12 blocks.

[rapid_business]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

amen...not to mention potential intensification around a SE line.

Where do you see these sites being?

As per building into the outlying communities by extending the NELRT and SLRT, etc. the city has dictated they want to build communities around LRT stations. This is one type of LRT building, that if done right, can work very well. (Think effective TOD's with a blank slate).

The other type of LRT building is catering to where the populous already live/work/play etc. Hence why WLRT makes sense.

The 3rd type deals with a combination of the two, to shape growth and provide access, while doing so in a fashion that contains it to the already build environment and fosters intensification, etc. KW's future line is all about this. Calgary has chosen the other model that says build the suburbs, and we'll bring the LRT there.

So it's all about what the ultimate goal is. I would say it's a healthy balance of shaping growth and providing accessibility.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by onishenko

Where do you see these sites being?

91st has good potential along with 34ave.

[Shodan]

January 23, 2008

NAIT is next
LRT extension to begin by the summer, says transportation boss

By FRANK LANDRY, CITY HALL BUREAU


Construction on the LRT line to NAIT could begin later this year, says a city official.

The comment came yesterday as a committee of council recommended planning work continue on the northwest leg of the rail line.

"By the summer, we'd be in a position to say we've started the NAIT line," transportation manager Bob Boutilier told the transportation and public works committee.

The work would involve the building of an LRT tunnel under what will be the new EPCOR building, near the downtown CN Tower.

The LRT line is proposed to run from the Churchill Station, under the EPCOR tower, before coming above ground on 105 Avenue west of 101 Street.

Boutilier said it would likely be another year after that before the construction contract goes out for the rest of the line.

He estimated the project would cost $700 million to $800 million to complete from end to end.

Coun. Bryan Anderson said it's still not known when the whole line would be finished. Mayor Stephen Mandel has said it will take three to five years.

Councillors were warned to tread carefully when approving the exact route of the new LRT extension.

Already, management of the Kingsway Garden Mall has objected to a proposed station on Princess Elizabeth Avenue, arguing it would gobble up 400 of the mall's parking spots.

"Future development at the centre is jeopardized by this development," Brad Merchant with Oxford Properties Group, which runs the mall, told the committee.

He said his group was "blindsided" by the city's proposal.

"We feel we're in a position where we have to fight back," Merchant said.

Two other stations are proposed - one near MacEwan College and another on Kingsway Avenue between 104 Street and 106 Street. It would serve the Royal Alexandra Hospital.

Warren Champion, with the Central McDougall Community League, said he's not crazy about the idea of the LRT line running through the heart of his neighbourhood, physically dividing the neighbourhood.

City administration was directed to continue working with all stakeholders as planning continues.

Coun. Dave Thiele said Mill Woods is being ignored in favour of LRT development in the north.

Thiele said he and many of his neighbours bought property in the 1980s under the assumption the LRT line would run just blocks away, as was originally planned. That's yet to happen.

"You see my frustration," Thiele said, adding Mill Woods is being "screwed again."

But Coun. Karen Leibovici, who's still pushing for an LRT line to the west end, said it will be impossible to please everyone.

"There are people who are going to be upset with any LRT decision we make in this city," Leibovici said.

The city is also looking to expand the LRT further south and further into the northeast.

The matter is slated to go before city council next week.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by Shodan

NAIT is next
LRT extension to begin by the summer, says transportation boss

Sweet, I should be able to take it in my fourth year.