Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by logan5

When Evergreen starts running I presume all electronics will be separate from the Expo Line? If that's the case, one line could pick up the slack for the other if there was a shutdown, after Evergreen comes online. Lougheed would be the mustering point for those Surrey/Coquitlam bound, depending on which system failed. Not ideal, but far easier than bussing people all the way from Vancouver.

Maybe that was the plan...a completely independent (in terms of computer system) Evergreen Line (Douglas to VCC Clarke ) will be the backup system that they need. After all, it will have an additional maintenance yard so it makes some sense for a redundant system there.

So if the Expo portion (the current system at Edmonds) breaks down, the Evergreen portion can still continue (its mostly parallel anyway) with feeder buses travelling north and south for coverage. Now if they only didn't delay it so many times...

Originally Posted by Smooth

What I imagine is going on at the Skytrain control centre right now...

This gif is full of win. Another forum weapon thingy to add to my Iago's surprise...

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

In New York last month, the signal system computers for the subway system had a 'power bump'...

When power was restored, the mechanical relays ... started working in a few minutes and the trains resumed their runs.

However, on the train lines that relied on modern computer systems, the computers took over an hour to restart...

So what would you rather have, an automated system that allows (both from a safety and a budget perspective by not requiring a driver for every train) 90-second frequencies all year round, or a manual system that saves an hour once every few years when a restart is needed?

Eliminating an average 30-seconds wait time per boarding works out to almost four hours a year for commuters who use the system twice a day. More if you're transferring between Skytrain lines.

[jsbertram]

I'm heading to Tinseltown to see a flick while this sorts out.
Anything worth seeing?

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I'm heading to Tinseltown to see a flick while this sorts out.
Anything worth seeing?

The movie in Tinseltown that you can watch the earliest (as of time of writing) is Planes: Fire and Rescue, which is 6:45. Otherwise, it would be 7 pm onwards. There is X-Men @ 7:25 if you haven't seen it yet.

[Pinion]

This is the top selling game in the world right now... you can stop trains with your cell phone. Maybe someone was inspired

• Video Link

That rail bridge fire earlier this month looked exactly like a key part of the game too..... hmmmmmmmmm....

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Pinion

This is the top selling game in the world right now... you can stop trains with your cell phone. Maybe someone was inspired

• Video Link

That rail bridge fire earlier this month looked exactly like a key part of the game too..... hmmmmmmmmm....

FYI, Skytrain is radio-controlled and this is entirely within possibility. (Though extremely unlikely.)

Originally Posted by queetz@home

The system is aging and it is surprising they never had a backup system in place ever. The fact that shutdowns of this magnitude weren't happening often prior to over two weeks ago is pure luck, and at the end of the day, it is extremely negligent to have no backup system in place for an aging automated system, whether its a rail line, a web hosting system or a data centre.

As we rely more and more on automation, and with the advent of hacking, system glitches and just overworn component over time, it makes me wonder why those overpaid Translink Execs didn't bother to put a backup system in place as part of standard operational procedure, something that is common place with businesses that also rely heavily on automation.

Can you imagine if the system of a financial institution, say RBC, were to have a catastrophic system failure, how would the financial records of millions of people would be recovered without a backup system?

Even if the two incidents didn't happen lately preventative measures should have already been in place since its common sense that any electronic system do break down. And as I said it before, these over paid idiots would rather make adequately functional but old and ugly stations pretty, rather than to allocate the necessary funds to make an aging system more reliable.

Contrary to someone earlier saying "let it pass", doing nothing is unacceptable, and given the amount of tax dollars we pay for this all or none rail system (either it completely runs or completely shuts down), EVERYONE should be expecting that these incidents never ever happen again on normal circumstances (exception are "acts of God" situations such as severe weather and earthquakes, or even criminal incidents like hacking or a terrorist attack).

I have a feeling that the "automated system" was designed to operate without redundancy back when it was super-expensive to even acquire computers. Somewhere along the line the headroom needed to recover from a failure moved, and because there are so many trains now, there is more effort required to clear the system.

As for "it would cost 20 million", doubt it. For that price they need is a mini-duplicate control center with it's own power that would be operated from the least likely area to be damaged in a disaster (this would be Metrotown station as it's the highest geographical point of the train line. Though there are other stations that aren't near sea level.) During a non-emergency it would just operate passively unstaffed. If any of the VCC's are taking out of commission, then this system would take over, and given no actual disaster, would be accessed remotely.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/defaul...seltracr_in_vancouver_evergreen_line.pdf
(Not sure how google found this file given how unusable the website is.)

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/transportation/train-control-cbtc
For how the technology actually works.

The first video that goes "High train availability due to redundant configuration" 1:27

I'd link the videos but they're less than 2 minutes each and basically marketing.

[Waders]

Originally Posted by spm2013

We should build steam locomotive Skytrain cars!

I like the following way proposed by some riders
Picture posted at CTV news. The article has a few "funny" comments from readers.

Source

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Kisai

As for "it would cost 20 million", doubt it.

That $20 million figure came from Fred Cummings, president and general manager of B.C. Rapid Transit Company. While I think he really screwed up by not ensuring the backup system in place to begin with, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt with regards to the dollar figure of the system. His word is far more credible than an anonymous internet arm chair analyst posting in this forum who likely has no background in procuring such equipment.

[spm2013]

It must be an election year.

Some Vancouver-region mayors were also fuming. “Repeated Skytrain outages unacceptable. Transit system need stable funding + local accountabilility,” tweeted Vancouver Mayor Gregor Robertson, facing a bid for re-election this November in a campaign where transit is likely to be a major issue.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/brit...tdown-strands-thousands/article19704221/

[Klazu]

TransLink apologizes for SkyTrain shutdown RAW

[Henbo]

Thank god something like this didn't happen during the olympics

[Genauso]

Of the recent past and near future major transportation public infrastructure project spending (road, bus, rail transit), which have or would have been helpful in adapting to recent link failures during rush hour?

Transportation shocks in the last couple of weeks:
- Accident in George Massey Tunnel / HWY-99
- CP Rail bridge fire closing Oak St bridge / HWY-99
- Expo Line shutdown x2

Major Projects:
- Lion's Gate bridge renovation
- Golden Ears bridge
- new Port Mann bridge
- Canada Line
- Evergreen Line
- Patullo bridge replacement ~?
- George Massey tunnel replacement ~2020
- Surrey LRT
- Arbutus LRT
- Tsawassen to Horseshoe Bay Canada Line extension

I think we've got a series of long & thin straws that are prone to choking and complete failure. There should be more options built in the busiest areas, instead of being preoccupied extending current paths. A small extension is cheap because most of the value is reusing the existing network, and there is more space to work in away from the core. It's the easy way out, and it's only cheaper on paper because it leads to a fragile network.

What's the transportation network we'd rather have if a 9+ earthquake occurs nearby? Forget about regional egos played up by the media & politicians, or a greedy desire to suck in the most money from taxes paid outside the local municipality.

[SpongeG]

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by spm2013

At least no one is complaining about Compass

if you read facebook comments about the train shutdown today, there are lots of people complaining about all the money spent on a useless compass system and the fact that skytrain bosses get paid millions of dallerz and riders get crappy services

[SpongeG]

[casper]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Actually I don't think the TCC does much better....
http://www.citynews.ca/2014/05/02/internal-power-failure-to-blame-for-disrupted-subway-service-ttc/


I could be mistaken, however I seam to remember at some point in time the control system for Skytrain was running on OS/2. Hopefully it has long moved over to something a bit more modern.

[Vancity]

Translink sucks.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

That $20 million figure came from Fred Cummings, president and general manager of B.C. Rapid Transit Company. While I think he really screwed up by not ensuring the backup system in place to begin with, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt with regards to the dollar figure of the system. His word is far more credible than an anonymous internet arm chair analyst posting in this forum who likely has no background in procuring such equipment.

The fact he was able to pull the number out so quickly tells me that they were quoted on it at some point. But that's just a simple estimate. Putting another computer in the same room as the existing system isn't redundancy. A power failure in the control room doesn't allow for redundancy if there is not another control room elsewhere.

Anyways it's pretty clear that redundancy is an option and Translink has chosen not to use/invest in it.

Speaking of "Aging Skytrain tech", this has nothing to do with the LIM trains and is blamed on the Automated control system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SelTrac
Which is used by like 50 other transit systems. The Vancouver Skytrain Expo line is the oldest system using it in production. So if there's going to be anything going wrong from age, it's going to go wrong here first (The Scarborough RT isn't operated fully automatic like the Vancouver Skytrain is.)

That said, look at other transportation systems like planes, Ferries, LRT's, heavy rail, and rapidbus, and see how often something happens due to driver/pilot error versus mechanical/electrical failure. I'd rather have the automated system stop when there is a problem than a human who will second-guess the nature of the problem.

And what do we do when an accident or issue happens? Investigate it and make the best effort for it to not happen again. People still fly no matter how many planes have crashed.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Kisai

The fact he was able to pull the number out so quickly tells me that they were quoted on it at some point. But that's just a simple estimate. Putting another computer in the same room as the existing system isn't redundancy. A power failure in the control room doesn't allow for redundancy if there is not another control room elsewhere.

Who says its going to be in the same room? And with regards to power failure in the control room, that can easily be mitigated by a backup power supply.

Originally Posted by Kisai

Anyways it's pretty clear that redundancy is an option and Translink has chosen not to use/invest in it.

And here is the crux of the issue. It is extremely irresponsible for Translink to not have a backup system for an automated system, especially at this day and age. Its madness and if Translink doesn't invest in a backup system, then clearly they have not learned from their mistakes these past few days.

There are a lot of things Translink is wasting money on, and the critics are right to point it out. But a backup system for the automated Skytrain system is not one of those, and it must be procurred as soon as possible, to prevent these mass shutdowns from happening again.

The impact of these shutdown is just crazy with just the existing Expo and Millenium Lines on a not so busy summer day. What more when the Evergreen Line and Broadway subway are up and running during busy seasons?

The whole point of expanding the rapid transit system is not to rely too much on buses as the primary means to move the growing volume of people from point A to B in a timely manner. The more the system expands, the more it needs to be working 100% with failure not being an option except for the most extreme situations.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

It is extremely irresponsible for Translink to not have a backup system for an automated system, especially at this day and age.

Let's not forget that each of the VCC's is triply redundant. They do in fact have backup systems, and I have no doubt that they have a UPS system for the control centre as well. I'm not privy to their system architecture, but unless these recent failures could have been avoided by additional redundancy then I think it's a bit premature to start proposing solutions that may be irrelevant.

Let's not forget that Translink has a few success stories as well. I remember when that transformer blew up and took out the power to a big chunk of downtown, including the Waterfront substation. Translink was able to continue running trains right to Waterfront because they calculated the voltage drop through the power rails from the last operable substation and limited the number of trains so that the onboard electronics wouldn't trip out due to an undervoltage condition.

And I think the speed with which trains were evacuated this time shows that they are learning pretty quickly.