Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

To give you an idea of how nit-picky it can be, the wife of one Montreal Expos baseball player did not like living in Montreal because her favourite flavour of Doritos chips was not available in Canada.

Having the city operate mostly in a language that is not English just adds another layer onto everything.

This is a famous story and I think she thought Doritos weren't available in general so drove to Vermont to buy them. At the time there were certainly a lot of things not available in Canada or with different names. If you live in the states rather than just visit you notice there is a bigger culture shock than expected. I know Quebec thinks it's distinct but there is little of that moving from Toronto to Montreal at least not much more than moving to Vancouver.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

To give you an idea of how nit-picky it can be, the wife of one Montreal Expos baseball player did not like living in Montreal because her favourite flavour of Doritos chips was not available in Canada.

Having the city operate mostly in a language that is not English just adds another layer onto everything.

I feel very little sympathy for millionaire athletes' families having to endure such hardships as this.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

So basically it comes down to the language of preference for pop culture and other media that's consumed. Fair enough.

It's a huge factor (though language applies to way more than pop culture and media), though the institutional framework is a big one as well, and is often interrelated with language of course.

In this sense, Quebec even if it lives, breathes and operates primarily in French, could be seen as fringe anglosphere as well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is a famous story and I think she thought Doritos weren't available in general so drove to Vermont to buy them. At the time there were certainly a lot of things not available in Canada or with different names. If you live in the states rather than just visit you notice there is a bigger culture shock than expected. I know Quebec thinks it's distinct but there is little of that moving from Toronto to Montreal at least not much more than moving to Vancouver.

In terms of consumer product availability? You're definitely right unless you're talking about books in French or DVDs or CDs. And of course the era of online shopping and digital content has even eliminated even most of that.

I am pretty sure that Archambault, the biggest cultural marketplace actor in Quebec, ships anywhere in Canada, and maybe to the US as well.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sadly, that is not really the case. The unilingual francophone in Quebec, even if he tries to live all in French, will still be exposed way more to the anglosphere's culture like music, TV, movies, etc.

Even if you listen only to francophone radio (ie the hosts speak in French) a huge chunk of the music they play is in English. Even if you watch only francophone entertainment programming, they will still talk about Hollywood movies to a significant degree. This is true in Quebec as well as in France BTW.

You can't escape exposure to anglosphere culture even if you live your life as a unilingual francophone.

However, living life with little to no exposure to francophone (or other) cultures isn't just a choice you can make in the anglosphere - it's the norm by default.

You can even do that as an anglophone in Quebec, even if it does take a bit more effort than in the ROC.

I'm not sure that this is completely accurate in a modern world, though, as many people now consume the media of their choice. The internet has changed this up (as you know), and though a francophone in Quebec may be exposed to other languages in daily life, they don't need to pay attention to them to go about their daily business. They are also not forced to listen to English language music or watch American movies.

If your contention is that there is more influence of the English language in Quebec than the French language in other Canadian provinces, I will agree and cite the cause as the proximity to the massively influential country to our south that produces media in quantities that any Canadian entity could only ever dream of.

So... to conclude... don't completely agree and don't completely disagree...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by big T

I think “anglosphere” applies less to whole countries and more to populations, especially in modern times. I’ve met a few English-speaking South Africans that absolutely fit this canonical idea of anglosphere, whereas the country as a whole would be a fringe member at most. On a different scale, Canada is similar. And the US, for that matter, with significant Hispanic, black and other minorities. The broad brush becomes problematic and loses its usefulness rather quickly I find.

Well stated, and I agree with your points.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by harls

I feel very little sympathy for millionaire athletes' families having to endure such hardships as this.

LOL... it's not like they couldn't arrange for a weekly shipment of Doritos if they wanted to. Professional athletes tend to have access to all the things that money can buy to make their lives more amenable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

LOL... it's not like they couldn't arrange for a weekly shipment of Doritos if they wanted to. Professional athletes tend to have access to all the things that money can buy to make their lives more amenable.

Montreal is also an hour's drive north of Plattsburgh NY (even closer than Burlington VT) and there was no requirement for passports to cross the border back then. It was a joke of a gripe.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark;10[B

[/B]142018]I'm not sure that this is completely accurate in a modern world, though, as many people now consume the media of their choice. The internet has changed this up (as you know), and though a francophone in Quebec may be exposed to other languages in daily life, they don't need to pay attention to them to go about their daily business. They are also not forced to listen to English language music or watch American movies.

If your contention is that there is more influence of the English language in Quebec than the French language in other Canadian provinces, I will agree and cite the cause as the proximity to the massively influential country to our south that produces media in quantities that any Canadian entity could only ever dream of.

So... to conclude... don't completely agree and don't completely disagree...

Perhaps not actually forced to listen to English language music but if you are out and about in society it is basically impossible to not be exposed to it quite a bit in a place like Quebec, and indeed in much of the western world.

If you go to the mall you'll hear it, if you go to your doctor or dentist's waiting room you'll hear it. Go to a sporting event you'll hear it.

And these are just a few examples off the top of my head.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big T

I think “anglosphere” applies less to whole countries and more to populations, especially in modern times. I’ve met a few English-speaking South Africans that absolutely fit this canonical idea of anglosphere, whereas the country as a whole would be a fringe member at most. On a different scale, Canada is similar. And the US, for that matter, with significant Hispanic, black and other minorities. The broad brush becomes problematic and loses its usefulness rather quickly I find.

I think you are right to a point but our era is also one of Freudian narcissism of minor differences.

"I know a Brazilian who prefers baseball over soccer so based on this single exception it's false to claim that Brazilians are passionate about soccer."

Nothing is ever 100% but a big part of sociology and other such social sciences is based on what might call educated generalizations, even though yes these times abhor generalizations.

So if we wanna go all the way with the Freudian narcissism, then sure the anglosphere doesn't exist and neither does the western world for that matter.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps not actually forced to listen to English language music but if you are out and about in society it is basically impossible to not be exposed to it quite a bit in a place like Quebec, and indeed in much of the western world..

And most anglophone Canadians learn their rudimentary French by being exposed to wrongly turned cereal boxes at the grocery store. What's your point (or complaint).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And most anglophone Canadians learn their rudimentary French by being exposed to wrongly turned cereal boxes at the grocery store. What's your point (or complaint).

Actually that's a case of equal exposure because francophones are also exposed to English on the other side of the cereal box.

There is no real equivalent for anglophones to the cultural exposure to English that francophones get.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Actually that's a case of equal exposure because francophones are also exposed to English on the other side of the cereal box.

There is no real equivalent for anglophones to the cultural exposure to English that francophones get.

Agreed.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

I feel very little sympathy for millionaire athletes' families having to endure such hardships as this.

Yeah, exactly.

Besides, there's nothing money cannot buy (see those famous soccer players now moving to Saudi Arabia, of all places).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps not actually forced to listen to English language music but if you are out and about in society it is basically impossible to not be exposed to it quite a bit in a place like Quebec, and indeed in much of the western world.

If you go to the mall you'll hear it, if you go to your doctor or dentist's waiting room you'll hear it. Go to a sporting event you'll hear it.

And these are just a few examples off the top of my head.

Do they play US Christmas songs in supermarkets in Québec around Christmas? It's always been one of the worst features of life in North America I've found. To my horror, some French supermarkets have also started doing it now (apparently they ignore that there also exist French Christmas songs, so it's all Nat King Cole and the likes over and over again).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Do they play US Christmas songs in supermarkets in Québec around Christmas? It's always been one of the worst features of life in North America I've found. To my horror, some French supermarkets have also started doing it now (apparently they ignore that there also exist French Christmas songs, so it's all Nat King Cole and the likes over and over again).

Yes they do in a lot of places. Not everywhere but it's still very common.

There are complaints about it however.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes they do in a lot of places. Not everywhere but it's still very common.

There are complaints about it however.

At least you guys complain. Here no one complains. The French are always very passive. Although this year I've noticed some supermarkets spared us the Christmas songs, so that's the ones where I shopped preferentially.

What about Halloween? Strong in Québec? In France we've been invaded with Halloween 15 years ago, it's insane. But now it has become more of a lower class thing. I notice more Halloween stuff when I travel to small town France, whereas in high-brow Paris Halloween is much more subdued these days. Small town France is always 10 years behind the curve.

This year (well 2023 I mean) however, there's been a renewed wave of Halloween. I thought it was slowly dying, now that the novelty and "seen in US series" effect was over, but for unknown reasons it's been stronger this year in Parisian stores that in the past 5 or 6 years.

So how about you guys?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

At least you guys complain. Here no one complains. The French are always very passive. Although this year I've noticed some supermarkets spared us the Christmas songs, so that's the ones where I shopped preferentially.

What about Halloween? Strong in Québec? In France we've been invaded with Halloween 15 years ago, it's insane. But now it has become more of a lower class thing. I notice more Halloween stuff when I travel to small town France, whereas in high-brow Paris Halloween is much more subdued these days. Small town France is always 10 years behind the curve.

This year (well 2023 I mean) however, there's been a renewed wave of Halloween. I thought it was slowly dying, now that the novelty and "seen in US series" effect was over, but for unknown reasons it's been stronger this year in Parisian stores that in the past 5 or 6 years.

So how about you guys?

Do the French have a festival/holiday where they dress up in costumes and children get treats? If not, maybe Halloween is the stand in, rather than it being a case of French people aping American culture because it's American.

Other cultures have something similar, and Halloween isn't a thing. Southern Germans have Fastnacht; Mexicans have Dia de los Muertos, etc.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

However, you have no idea of the awareness of the average individual in those provinces. You are just creating a narrative in an attempt to support your point.

I can never take you seriously here, as it always feels that you are arguing in bad faith, and also are attempting to dominate the conversation by providing negative feedback to anybody who participates that isn't in agreement with you.

You are actually the reason I don't participate here more often - it's not worth the effort of reading page after page of the gobbledegook you are always throwing out there. It's not worth the time or energy to constantly try to infuse perspective into your one-sided take on everything.

Sorry.

I have (mostly) given up on this thread, precisely because of the sanctimonious attitude of a certain somebody that absolutely does not brook any deviation in the narrative from a preconceived narrow perspective. It might be tolerable if these postings weren't always drenched in unvarnished condescension for anything and everything English, as if it were utterly impossible for any English person to understand how things are. This thread has become this person's bully pulpit to advance his unshakable convictions.

[big T]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think you are right to a point but our era is also one of Freudian narcissism of minor differences.

"I know a Brazilian who prefers baseball over soccer so based on this single exception it's false to claim that Brazilians are passionate about soccer."

Nothing is ever 100% but a big part of sociology and other such social sciences is based on what might call educated generalizations, even though yes these times abhor generalizations.

So if we wanna go all the way with the Freudian narcissism, then sure the anglosphere doesn't exist and neither does the western world for that matter.

I actually agree with this. Though the thing with the English-speaking world, given its size and gravity pull, is that you end up with a massive "in between" fringe of people who partake into this shared anglo-american culture to a significant extent, in addition to another. Certainly way larger than with other cultural spheres.

There are all sorts of reasons (some of them good, even) that thinking in terms of this sort of "purity scale" is frowned upon. But if we go back to trying to classify countries, I think it helps to focus on the elites -- in which case, I would argue that Canada is, in fact, as solidly "anglosphere" as any of them, Quebec-born PMs notwithstanding.

As an aside to your other point on Quebec being more exposed, and since I know you'll get a kick out of it -- I was at a wedding in Estrie on Saturday, about 80 guests, 95% Qc francophones. And the main convo topic was... the superbowl.