Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though Montreal in spite of its bilingual character is still too exotic for many Anglo-American athletes. It was (something of) an issue when the Expos were there.

As mentioned already, even Toronto is too exotic for some of these guys, and was an issue in Vancouver as well when it had an NBA team.

Exotic is thrown around casually in the sports world as the easy 'media-friendly' explanation for preferring Miami/LA/NYC over TOR/MTL/VAN, but usually it's the combination of various bureaucratic headaches for living abroad, including CRA tax issues, work visas, crossing the border all the time, foreign exchange, shitty Canadian winters, etc that drives them away. Made worse by the fact that they'd be away from the American spotlight, and they perceive the lack of domestic facetime as potentially killing their sponsorship income potential down the road.

If Canada was tropical with beaches, transacted in USD, had a Schengen agreement in place and a more integrated advertising/TV market with the US, I bet most players will find TOR/MTL/VAN to be a lot more attractive or at least palatable to play in.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Exotic is thrown around casually in the sports world as the easy 'media-friendly' explanation for preferring Miami/LA/NYC over TOR/MTL/VAN, but usually it's the combination of various bureaucratic headaches for living abroad, including CRA tax issues, work visas, crossing the border all the time, foreign exchange, shitty Canadian winters, etc that drives them away. Made worse by the fact that they'd be away from the American spotlight, and they perceive the lack of domestic facetime as potentially killing their sponsorship income potential down the road.

If Canada was tropical with beaches, transacted in USD, had a Schengen agreement in place and a more integrated advertising/TV market with the US, I bet most players will find TOR/MTL/VAN to be a lot more attractive or at least palatable to play in.

All true!

[kool maudit]

I also think this is part of being kind of an expansion pack country. A big percentage of these athletes (although this is shrinking) are American guys who signed up to do American stuff. There was probably never any real expectation that borders and currencies and tax treaties would be involved.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

MonctonRad (an anglo if there ever was one!)

Guilty as charged, but an anglo not unsympathetic to the francophone cause, and, living in Moncton, well aware of the siren call of the dominant anglophone culture of North America and what it means for assimilation.

I just want fairness for the anglophone minority in Quebec, having had family members living there. Equality of service will not be possible of course (especially in 98% francophone areas of the province, but it might be nice in areas like the townships, Chateauguay valley, Outouais, greater Montreal, parts of the Gaspesie south shore and in the nord shore around Blanc Sablon where historical anglophone populations exist.

I am growing more and more concerned that Legault's ultimate aim is nothing less than the extirpation of the anglophone community within the province.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

True to a point. The federal government doesn't set language policy for the provinces. It only sets language policy for itself and its institutions and services. The provinces are more or less free to operate in the language of their choice with some federally-mandated requirements for services in the "other" language like K-12 schooling. (Actually this is arguably the only thing provinces are required to provide in the official minority language.)

Aside from that, all of the provinces are unilingual with varying levels of services in the "other" language. Except for New Brunswick as Molson said. Ontario is English only with an appreciable level of services in French. Quebec is French only but with an even higher degree of services in English. (Yeah I know what you guys think but it's true.)

All of the other provinces are English only with a sprinkling of services in French ranging from noticeable in Manitoba, Nova Scotia and PEI to barely there in Newfoundland, Saskatchewan, Alberta and BC.

Ah, very interesting. Thanks for the education! I suppose I've never thought that deeply about it in the past... I just assumed that a Canada with two official languages is just that, but obviously it's more nuanced.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Exotic is thrown around casually in the sports world as the easy 'media-friendly' explanation for preferring Miami/LA/NYC over TOR/MTL/VAN, but usually it's the combination of various bureaucratic headaches for living abroad, including CRA tax issues, work visas, crossing the border all the time, foreign exchange, shitty Canadian winters, etc that drives them away. Made worse by the fact that they'd be away from the American spotlight, and they perceive the lack of domestic facetime as potentially killing their sponsorship income potential down the road.

If Canada was tropical with beaches, transacted in USD, had a Schengen agreement in place and a more integrated advertising/TV market with the US, I bet most players will find TOR/MTL/VAN to be a lot more attractive or at least palatable to play in.

So in a nutshell, it has nothing to do with language or with people in Québec City insisting on speaking French (how dare they!).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

MonctonRad (an anglo if there ever was one!) is right though that the Anglosphere tends to be pretty insular, and he gave a good explanation as to why that is.

The Anglosphere countries, at least in the western world, are the least penetrable to music, movies, TV, theatre, books, etc. from other languages and cultures. By a longshot.

Whereas everyone else in the west consumes each other's stuff (including tons of Anglosphere stuff of course), Anglosphere people typically just consume anglo stuff.

That's why for example Italian movies would play in theatres in small town Quebec but not in medium-sized cities in the ROC.

Well, I've not, and still don't, think of Canada as 'anglosphere' as that makes it seem like a binary choice. Either you are or you are not. I tend think we're more diverse than that.

However, if we're not talking absolutes, I can agree that there is some validity to what you're saying. I could live in my province with no knowledge of French, just like a francophone could live in Quebec with no English... so I suppose each society can be insular if it wants to be. In terms of actual living situations, though, I tend to see areas like Quebec and the prairies as more insular than the rest of the country. I tend to think that BC, Ontario, and the Atlantic provinces are more open to other cultures and languages in general. I don't tend to consider the northern parts of the country in the same light, though, as their geography/weather and cultural heritage forces a degree of insularity that's not a choice so much as a reality.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

In terms of actual living situations, though, I tend to see areas like Quebec and the prairies as more insular than the rest of the country. I tend to think that BC, Ontario, and the Atlantic provinces are more open to other cultures and languages in general.

Judging by their media, people in Québec are more aware of what's going on in Europe than is the case in BC or Ontario. How is that "insular"?

Just because you don't have restaurants offering all the different nuances of regional Indian cuisines at the corner of your street doesn't mean you're insular. (in which case Paris, Berlin, Rome, Madrid would be very insular)

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So in a nutshell, it has nothing to do with language or with people in Québec City insisting on speaking French (how dare they!).

But you're trying to insinuate that it's entirely about the rejection of the French language and Quebecois culture, and people who actually understand the situation are trying to tell you that it's much larger and more complex than that.

However, I understand that doesn't fit in well with your purpose for being here, so carry on.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

However, I understand that doesn't fit in well with your purpose for being here, so carry on.

Indeed. New Brisavoine is here for one reason, and one reason only.........

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

But you're trying to insinuate that it's entirely about the rejection of the French language and Quebecois culture, and people who actually understand the situation are trying to tell you that it's much larger and more complex than that.

However, I understand that doesn't fit in well with your purpose for being here, so carry on.

Excuse me? I merely quoted the Montreal Gazette.

it’s not a welcoming place for unilingual English speakers who have to spend eight months in a city with an anglo population of 1.5 per cent and shrinking. This is particularly difficult on wives, children and girlfriends who are left behind to fend for themselves when the players are off on a 10-day road trip.

https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/colu...al&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1707507953

So feel free to send a letter of complaint to the Montreal Gazette!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Judging by their media, people in Québec are more aware of what's going on in Europe than is the case in BC or Ontario. How is that "insular"?

Just because you don't have restaurants offering all the different nuances of regional Indian cuisines at the corner of your street doesn't mean you're insular. (in which case Paris, Berlin, Rome, Madrid would be very insular)

However, you have no idea of the awareness of the average individual in those provinces. You are just creating a narrative in an attempt to support your point.

I can never take you seriously here, as it always feels that you are arguing in bad faith, and also are attempting to dominate the conversation by providing negative feedback to anybody who participates that isn't in agreement with you.

You are actually the reason I don't participate here more often - it's not worth the effort of reading page after page of the gobbledegook you are always throwing out there. It's not worth the time or energy to constantly try to infuse perspective into your one-sided take on everything.

Sorry.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Excuse me? I merely quoted the Montreal Gazette.

So feel free to send a letter of complaint to the Montreal Gazette!

In English-speaking culture, that's called "cherry-picking", my friend.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

However, you have no idea of the awareness of the average individual in those provinces. You are just creating a narrative in an attempt to support your point.

I can never take you seriously here, as it always feels that you are arguing in bad faith, and also are attempting to dominate the conversation by providing negative feedback to anybody who participates that isn't in agreement with you.

You are actually the reason I don't participate here more often - it's not worth the effort of reading page after page of the gobbledegook you are always throwing out there. It's not worth the time or energy to constantly try to infuse perspective into your one-sided take on everything.

Sorry.

Or rather, let's rephrase, you'd prefer to have a thread that conforms to your vision of things. Open a blog then, problem solved.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So in a nutshell, it has nothing to do with language or with people in Québec City insisting on speaking French (how dare they!).

To give you an idea of how nit-picky it can be, the wife of one Montreal Expos baseball player did not like living in Montreal because her favourite flavour of Doritos chips was not available in Canada.

Having the city operate mostly in a language that is not English just adds another layer onto everything.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Well, I've not, and still don't, think of Canada as 'anglosphere' as that makes it seem like a binary choice. Either you are or you are not. I tend think we're more diverse than that.

Canada, or at least the ROC, is every bit as "anglosphere" as any of the other members of that sphere. Australia and the US have a significant amount of ethnocultural diversity from global non-anglo immigration within them plus Indigenous peoples as well. The UK also has major diversity too.

So the ROC does not really stand out and if we were to apply this criteria then may as well say the anglosphere simply does not exist.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

However, if we're not talking absolutes, I can agree that there is some validity to what you're saying. I could live in my province with no knowledge of French, just like a francophone could live in Quebec with no English... so I suppose each society can be insular if it wants to be.

Sadly, that is not really the case. The unilingual francophone in Quebec, even if he tries to live all in French, will still be exposed way more to the anglosphere's culture like music, TV, movies, etc.

Even if you listen only to francophone radio (ie the hosts speak in French) a huge chunk of the music they play is in English. Even if you watch only francophone entertainment programming, they will still talk about Hollywood movies to a significant degree. This is true in Quebec as well as in France BTW.

You can't escape exposure to anglosphere culture even if you live your life as a unilingual francophone.

However, living life with little to no exposure to francophone (or other) cultures isn't just a choice you can make in the anglosphere - it's the norm by default.

You can even do that as an anglophone in Quebec, even if it does take a bit more effort than in the ROC.

[big T]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Well, I've not, and still don't, think of Canada as 'anglosphere' as that makes it seem like a binary choice. Either you are or you are not. I tend think we're more diverse than that.

However, if we're not talking absolutes, I can agree that there is some validity to what you're saying. I could live in my province with no knowledge of French, just like a francophone could live in Quebec with no English... so I suppose each society can be insular if it wants to be. In terms of actual living situations, though, I tend to see areas like Quebec and the prairies as more insular than the rest of the country. I tend to think that BC, Ontario, and the Atlantic provinces are more open to other cultures and languages in general. I don't tend to consider the northern parts of the country in the same light, though, as their geography/weather and cultural heritage forces a degree of insularity that's not a choice so much as a reality.

I think “anglosphere” applies less to whole countries and more to populations, especially in modern times. I’ve met a few English-speaking South Africans that absolutely fit this canonical idea of anglosphere, whereas the country as a whole would be a fringe member at most. On a different scale, Canada is similar. And the US, for that matter, with significant Hispanic, black and other minorities. The broad brush becomes problematic and loses its usefulness rather quickly I find.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Or rather, let's rephrase, you'd prefer to have a thread that conforms to your vision of things. Open a blog then, problem solved.

Play your games all you want, mon ami, I'm not buying in.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada, or at least the ROC, is every bit as "anglosphere" as any of the other members of that sphere. Australia and the US have a significant amount of ethnocultural diversity from global non-anglo immigration within them plus Indigenous peoples as well. The UK also has major diversity too.

So the ROC does not really stand out and if we were to apply this criteria then may as well say the anglosphere simply does not exist.

So basically it comes down to the language of preference for pop culture and other media that's consumed. Fair enough.