Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[Trainguy]

If LRT is such a great thing to connect major centres/communities, how come no other city in Metro Van has stepped up and said, "Hey, we need one of those running down the middle of our streets!!!!"

Answer: It's political suicide. Just ask Surrey First.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Problem there is that you'd give up one of SkyTrain's major advantages: frequency. One branch line to Production Way, one to Newton, and one to Langley means about a five-minute wait at peak hour. If we're going with an "Expo to Newton" scenario, better make a separate Langley-Guildford Line.

Then remove the Production Line Spur, and return it to the Millennium Line.
Or are there problems I'm missing here?

Is the Evergreen Extension so busy that the Millennium Line can't branch into two?

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Then remove the Production Line Spur, and return it to the Millennium Line.
Or are there problems I'm missing here?

Is the Evergreen Extension so busy that the Millennium Line can't branch into two?

It's more logistics than demand. Having the M-Line terminate to Lafarge Lake from VCC-Clarke than looping back reduces the complexity of interlining. Officedweller make a good post on that stuff, but I can't remember when he posted it.

[Geof]

I can't find it online, but I remember a Vancouver Sun two-page spread on Gordon Campbell's 2008 $14 billion transit plan that showed a jog up to Guildford before coming back down to Fraser Highway, just as officedweller suggests. I kept a copy of that page, but can't find it now (I might have recycled it). The existing images online don't show the Guildford diversion.

BTW, love the use of the paper map, officedweller.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Geof

I can't find it online, but I remember a Vancouver Sun two-page spread on Gordon Campbell's 2008 $14 billion transit plan that showed a jog up to Guildford before coming back down to Fraser Highway, just as officedweller suggests. I kept a copy of that page, but can't find it now (I might have recycled it). The existing images online don't show the Guildford diversion.

BTW, love the use of the paper map, officedweller.

It was mine, actually.
It was from Mapart, which no longer produces its high-quality maps, unfortunately.

That idea was the original idea for the Langley Line, but was scrapped pretty early on, probably because of the ridiculous turns at King George that would be needed.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

It's more logistics than demand. Having the M-Line terminate to Lafarge Lake from VCC-Clarke than looping back reduces the complexity of interlining. Officedweller make a good post on that stuff, but I can't remember when he posted it.

(I had a long analysis, but the webpage ate the reply up, so here's the cliffnotes version).


The thing is, any Fraser Line would be limited in other ways as well. The only cheap and simple way to merge the Fraser and Expo together would be to single track the Expo and Fraser at Surrey Central Station. The issue with this, of course, being that this would limit the maximum frequency of the Fraser Line at 3-4 minutes. It would limit the Expo too, but half the trains split off towards Production Way, meaning the Expo Line trains would not reach this bottleneck.

This is probably still the way to go on the long run once demand justifies it, though, since the Expo can't turn to 104th from Gateway without destroying a few buildings (and going from Surrey Central requires stopping, then turning towards 104th, backwards) and it still provides slightly better frequency.

But for now, extending the Expo either down Fraser or King George, is the way to go.

[officedweller]

That was Fredinno's paper map.
WRET the number of stations - that was just from the previous posts and LRT plans, etc.

If the Expo Line gets to capacity, then agreed that they should ditch the Production Way spur
by (as others also mention) building a 3rd platform at Columbia so the Millennium Line can branch
at Lougheed to Columbia or LaFarge Lake Douglas. That would leave just 2 branches in Surrey for the Expo Line.

Here's the map from the 2008 plan - doesn't really hit Guildford, but similar:


https://sfb.nathanpachal.com/2016/06...ing-in-bc.html

[NewfBC]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

Add me to the list of supporting officedweller's plan. That looks really feasible and cost effective. It maintains Central City as the main hub while ensuring 104th and Guildford are serviced adequately as the train heads down 152th and down Fraser Highway to Langley. Sorry Newton....you're crime ridden anyway with weirdos and gangs. Take the bus, for now. But facetiousness aside, this is an excellent example of route planning the city should consider.

People are forgetting that Newton has a larger population than Langley and will continue to do so as one of the faster growing areas of Surrey to 2045.

Ron.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by NewfBC

People are forgetting that Newton has a larger population than Langley and will continue to do so as one of the faster growing areas of Surrey to 2045.

Ron.

This here is why it's kind of crazy that Newton only warrants B-Line buses but Langley gets SkyTrain. Why not a B-Line down Fraser Highway? Oh wait.

What we really need is to get to a position where we're not squabbling about the technology of the routes, which is really driven by a lack of funding. We need to get to pushing for higher levels of funding so the Newton-Surrey Central-Guildford LRT (or whatever technology makes sense) can happen AND Fraser Highway can get whatever rapid transit it should have (as decided by actual transit planners and not mayors) AND these things happen quicker instead of having to be drawn out over twenty-year periods. SkyTrain vs LRT is a distraction, when the actual challenge we should be tackling is scarcity vs abundance.

[ronthecivil]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

This here is why it's kind of crazy that Newton only warrants B-Line buses but Langley gets SkyTrain. Why not a B-Line down Fraser Highway? Oh wait.

What we really need is to get to a position where we're not squabbling about the technology of the routes, which is really driven by a lack of funding. We need to get to pushing for higher levels of funding so the Newton-Surrey Central-Guildford LRT (or whatever technology makes sense) can happen AND Fraser Highway can get whatever rapid transit it should have (as decided by actual transit planners and not mayors) AND these things happen quicker instead of having to be drawn out over twenty-year periods. SkyTrain vs LRT is a distraction, when the actual challenge we should be tackling is scarcity vs abundance.

In good news they are putting new Bline service in many obvious locations starting soon. This should have happened LONG ago.....

[Geof]

Originally Posted by fredinno

It was mine, actually.
It was from Mapart, which no longer produces its high-quality maps, unfortunately.

Oops, sorry fredinno!

[BirchTrain]

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...-lrt-in-surrey

“SkyTrain costs more and does less”

Wtf??

[ilikeredheads]

"experts"

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by BirchTrain

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...-lrt-in-surrey

“SkyTrain costs more and does less”

Wtf??

My WTF moment came when I read "If the City of Surrey goes ahead and cancels the LRT plan, it’s going to set public transit back by 20 years south of the Fraser River" - how long are we going to have to hear that one? SoF residents would argue that their public transit is already set back by 20 years compared to NoF.

[Metro-One]

The LRT promoters are starting to sound desperate.

Yes, there are questions that will need to be answered regarding be new Skytrain approach, but all of their hyperboles and complete distortion of facts is only driving be nails in the LRT coffin faster.

I think it was expected to have some kicking and screaming from them before the official cancellation.

[BirchTrain]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

"experts"

And one of the guys in the article said that Hamburg is an example of at grade rail working well, yet they ditched their trams in 1978!

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Problem there is that you'd give up one of SkyTrain's major advantages: frequency. One branch line to Production Way, one to Newton, and one to Langley means about a five-minute wait at peak hour. If we're going with an "Expo to Newton" scenario, better make a separate Langley-Guildford Line.

I see this all a little different.

An extension should be built to both Newton and Guildford. They should be designed so that they could be their own line separate of the Expo line. Then, build the Skytrain to Langley.

Now, for those that say that is not enough for the legs, what you now do is make the Newton - Guildford section a new "line"

Build an extension north of Guildford to PoCo to connect with the Evergreen section. That would turn the Newton - Guldford section into the Millennium Line.

Then, a future extension to White Rock could be done.

Solves a lot of problems and gives more access to more areas by Skytrain.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

This here is why it's kind of crazy that Newton only warrants B-Line buses but Langley gets SkyTrain.

Broadway's got several times then population and density, but they've had to make do with a B-Line for over two decades now... while semi-empty industrial land next door got the full starchitect treatment. Surrey hasn't even had their B-Line for one decade (and three-door boarding only came a year or two ago).

Not saying any of that is fair - on the contrary, it's understandable for Newton and Guildford to be resentful - but the needs of the entire metro outweigh two town centres.

And it's not like they're being robbed here. Remember that the light rail's capacity and trip times are barely above the 96's, much less a BRT's.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I see this all a little different.

An extension should be built to both Newton and Guildford. They should be designed so that they could be their own line separate of the Expo line. Then, build the Skytrain to Langley.

Now, for those that say that is not enough for the legs, what you now do is make the Newton - Guildford section a new "line"

Build an extension north of Guildford to PoCo to connect with the Evergreen section. That would turn the Newton - Guldford section into the Millennium Line.

Then, a future extension to White Rock could be done.

Solves a lot of problems and gives more access to more areas by Skytrain.

You're not wrong, but I highly doubt we're going to reach Coquitlam with $1.7 billion - maybe in Phase 3. For now, the plan needs to focus on a purely SoF route, and that probably means extending the Expo Line to Langley or Newton.

BTW, wouldn't it make more sense to make it separate from the Millennium? Running the Guildford-Coquitlam extension down Mariner allows for a second station atop Coq Central (a la Commercial-Broadway) - then it can take over Lincoln & Lafarge, and the Millennium can run to Maple Ridge at full frequency.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Broadway's got several times then population and density, but they've had to make do with a B-Line for over two decades now... while semi-empty industrial land next door got the full starchitect treatment. Surrey hasn't even had their B-Line for one decade (and three-door boarding only came a year or two ago).

Not saying any of that is fair - on the contrary, it's understandable for Newton and Guildford to be resentful - but the needs of the entire metro outweigh two town centres.

And it's not like they're being robbed here. Remember that the light rail's capacity and trip times are barely above the 96's, much less a BRT's.



You're not wrong, but I highly doubt we're going to reach Coquitlam with $1.7 billion - maybe in Phase 3. For now, the plan needs to focus on a purely SoF route, and that probably means extending the Expo Line to Langley or Newton.

BTW, wouldn't it make more sense to make it separate from the Millennium? Running the Guildford-Coquitlam extension down Mariner allows for a second station atop Coq Central (a la Commercial-Broadway) - then it can take over Lincoln & Lafarge, and the Millennium can run to Maple Ridge at full frequency.

I see this as at least 3 phases. But getting it up there and getting it down to White Rock should be done within 25 years.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I see this as at least 3 phases. But getting it up there and getting it down to White Rock should be done within 25 years.

We realistically wouldn't get there in our current Rate. There's simply not enough time, or money to go around over more high-priority routes, like Hastings, completing the UBC extension, a North Shore Transit Tunnel, Canada Line Capacity Expansion...