Gore Park

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by flar

Technically a lot of the "undesirables" in Gore Park are not loitering, since they are conducting business. It's just incredible how ineffective the police cameras are. The drug trade has been almost completely unaffected by them. Cops on foot all day every day are the best bet. The undesirable elements don't like the police and will find somewhere else to hang out if there are cops there all the time.

I think loitering is fine though, public spaces are gathering places, places to hang out. There's no need for everyone to be spending money down there, downtown is about more than shopping and business.

I agree wholeheartedly. Downtown is not a mall. Try hanging out in a mall for any length of time and you'll have security eyeing you for just hanging out.
I want to be free to hang out and read a book in Gore Park for hours if I choose without someone coming by to tell me to 'hurry it along'.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I agree wholeheartedly. Downtown is not a mall. Try hanging out in a mall for any length of time and you'll have security eyeing you for just hanging out.
I want to be free to hang out and read a book in Gore Park for hours if I choose without someone coming by to tell me to 'hurry it along'.

If you are reading a book then you are not loitering. You have a purpose, i.e. reading a book.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

If you are reading a book then you are not loitering. You have a purpose, i.e. reading a book.

ok, I want to be free to sit there and do nothing.
Quite often I just grab a bench and sit and watch the world go by.
That's what downtowns are for.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

ok, I want to be free to sit there and do nothing.
Quite often I just grab a bench and sit and watch the world go by.
That's what downtowns are for.

I assume you will not be doing that day after day, and I assume you will settle in with a coffee and snack at some point, or perhaps lunch from a local establishment.

I think we are splitting hairs and I think we all know what is deemed societal acceptable to be doing in any area of the public city.

[omro]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I want to be free to hang out and read a book in Gore Park for hours if I choose without someone coming by to tell me to 'hurry it along'.

Which of Hamilton's many little parks are good for book reading in summer?

Is there a thread devoted to Hamilton's parks in general that would contain this information?

[fastcarsfreedom]

Quote
Cops on foot all day every day are the best bet. The undesirable elements don't like the police and will find somewhere else to hang out if there are cops there all the time.

Agree whole-heartedly Flar--the police would dearly love to have the resources to take this approach to tackling street-level crime. Nonetheless, in addition to a lack of resources, the police are often confronted with a lack of community engagment on this issue. Moreover, while the so-called "broken windows" approach to tackling crime has proven effective, it has a considerable number of those who oppose it (including some who've posted here in the past)...it all comes back to the old argument of "why are you picking on me when there are serious criminals out there?"

It is great to think of downtown as a perfect mosaic of life, commerce, art, etc. However, there is a tipping point where a certain aspect of "social diversity" begins to alienate more people than it attracts. While it isn't desirable to "push aside" folks--when people with money to spend stop coming downtown--you have a serious problem that no amount of public spaces or rebuilt sidewalks can fix. I have beat the drum a number of times using my own parents' as an example--slowly but surely downtown simply stopped providing them with what they needed from a commerce standpoint...and they were people who genuinely wanted to support downtown businesses (and did for many years). Compounding the problem, downtown began to increase in popularity as a "harbour" of sorts for various types of people who...let's say they aren't the type of people I'd want my 65 year old mother having to deal with while she walked down King Street or through the Gore. The last time I was downtown I was asked for money four times between the King/James entrance of Jackson Square and Cheapies--while I may be willing to tolerate it--there are large numbers of people who simply won't (nor should they have to).

[adam]

Unlike fastcars, I actually live in Hamilton and go downtown all the time. There are reasons why there are so many bums that ask for change and these social issues should not be ignored by government. The unemployment rate is pushing 7% - the highest its been in 3 years (since Harper took office)

And when Toronto was my regular haunt, I recall being asked for money a lot more than currently in Hamilton.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by adam

Unlike fastcars, I actually live in Hamilton and go downtown all the time. There are reasons why there are so many bums that ask for change and these social issues should not be ignored by government. The unemployment rate is pushing 7% - the highest its been in 3 years (since Harper took office)

And when Toronto was my regular haunt, I recall being asked for money a lot more than currently in Hamilton.

First of all. don't blame Harper. The US economy is suffering, and that's indirectly a reason why our unemployment has raised.

I really think they want to get rid of loiterers is due to the negative stigma hamilton has to most out-of-towners. Like it or not, the majority of people sneer at hamilton. They want to recreate a more positive image. a major reduction on creepy, homeless looking people is a good thing for the image. Toronto has just as many people, but the reputation of Toronto helps keep that problem to a low. Hamilton doesn't have that reputation.

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by adam

Unlike fastcars, I actually live in Hamilton and go downtown all the time. There are reasons why there are so many bums that ask for change and these social issues should not be ignored by government. The unemployment rate is pushing 7% - the highest its been in 3 years (since Harper took office)

And when Toronto was my regular haunt, I recall being asked for money a lot more than currently in Hamilton.

Frankly Adam, what are your solutions? Just shovel money at these people? Open a bunch of community centers and they'll just leave Gore Park for free pop and chips? I live a few blocks from downtown, so you'll have to do better than your lame ass ad hominem attacks.

It is problematic for the city when an out of towner stays at the Crown Plaza and has to walk to the convention center past the Gore. Hopefully with the LRT and the passage of time, the forces of gentrification will make the drug dealers feel less and less comfortable and move on to somewhere else, instead of blighting the centre of our city and holding us back.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by adam

Unlike fastcars, I actually live in Hamilton and go downtown all the time. There are reasons why there are so many bums that ask for change and these social issues should not be ignored by government. The unemployment rate is pushing 7% - the highest its been in 3 years (since Harper took office)

And when Toronto was my regular haunt, I recall being asked for money a lot more than currently in Hamilton.

What is your theory about why these people can't get a job?

[DC83]

Originally Posted by Millstone

What is your theory about why these people can't get a job?

I don't mean to answer for you, Adam, but it's sheer laziness.

Most people who don't have jobs are unemployed b/c they don't want to be. There ARE jobs out there. And if there aren't full-time jobs, there are part time jobs, temp jobs, odd jobs, etc.

For the most part, it's the matter of choice. Wow... the Right-Winged Me is coming out! ...I'm scared. hahahaha

[BrianE]

Originally Posted by DC83

I don't mean to answer for you, Adam, but it's sheer laziness.

Most people who don't have jobs are unemployed b/c they don't want to be. There ARE jobs out there. And if there aren't full-time jobs, there are part time jobs, temp jobs, odd jobs, etc.

For the most part, it's the matter of choice. Wow... the Right-Winged Me is coming out! ...I'm scared. hahahaha

Oh come on, you can't believe that. What about the people who have serious mental health issues? There are a TON of people on the streets right now who would not be if they were taking the right medications. There are also a TON more who would be on the streets yelling at lamp posts if it werent for their daily meds.

I think the 'lazy' people are not the ones begging on the street. They're the ones who work the system, bounce from low paying job to welfare and back again, only working the absolute minimum amount so that their monthly welfare check doesn't decrease. These people are the real drag on our society, most of the folks in Gore Park have serious mental and substance abuse issues that nobody on this disscusion board can even begin to understand.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by DC83

I don't mean to answer for you, Adam, but it's sheer laziness.

Most people who don't have jobs are unemployed b/c they don't want to be. There ARE jobs out there. And if there aren't full-time jobs, there are part time jobs, temp jobs, odd jobs, etc.

For the most part, it's the matter of choice. Wow... the Right-Winged Me is coming out! ...I'm scared. hahahaha

Right, that's the correct answer, but I was looking for adam's answer.

[DC83]

^^ Wow, Snippy Magee... sorry.

[adam]

Millstone, this was my first opportunity to log in today. Looks like I struck a nerve!

I am sorry that we are trying to lump everyone who is unemployed or below the poverty line into one big category by simply dismissing them as "lazy". Is 25% of the population of Hamilton really just simply lazy? Is it really that simple?

What about people with psychological disorders? What about single moms who can't get a babysitter because its more cost effective for them to collect welfare and stay at home? What about people who are in a vicious cycle and don't know how to break out? What about young adults who were raised in poverty and don't know any different?

[go_leafs_go02]

So today, I had an opportunity to people watch in hamilton for 20 minutes at 5 PM in Gore Park, and man, what a sketchy, creepy bunch of people. Honestly. Everyone looked so miserable, and sad looking. It just struck me in a way today, where it made me want to get out of this city, like right away. I totally know why they want to get people out of Gore Park. What a bad advertisement for the city. I wish I had a camera just to take shots of random people, and by that, I mean random.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

So today, I had an opportunity to people watch in hamilton for 20 minutes at 5 PM in Gore Park, and man, what a sketchy, creepy bunch of people. Honestly. Everyone looked so miserable, and sad looking. It just struck me in a way today, where it made me want to get out of this city, like right away. I totally know why they want to get people out of Gore Park. What a bad advertisement for the city. I wish I had a camera just to take shots of random people, and by that, I mean random.

I have been in Gore Park on my to/from school at all times of the day, for the last year and a half...and trust me....the people there and at Jackson Square are ALWAYS sketchy. Once it gets dark, there is a group of like 10-20 'Punk' kids that chill out front of the Bingo hall and ask people for money. Skettttch.

[adam]

So what's the city doing about it? Too busy trying to save money on redoing city hall

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by crhayes

I have been in Gore Park on my to/from school at all times of the day, for the last year and a half...and trust me....the people there and at Jackson Square are ALWAYS sketchy. Once it gets dark, there is a group of like 10-20 'Punk' kids that chill out front of the Bingo hall and ask people for money. Skettttch.

ooh, sounds so scary. Lol. We should all move to New York...I mean, Montreal...I mean, Vancouver....oh forget it!! How about Oakville?? Maybe Dunville. Oh wait, I saw a homeless guy there once....bad idea. Sorry.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

ooh, sounds so scary. Lol. We should all move to New York...I mean, Montreal...I mean, Vancouver....oh forget it!! How about Oakville?? Maybe Dunville. Oh wait, I saw a homeless guy there once....bad idea. Sorry.

You may not be afraid to go down there, and neither am I. But put yourself in the position of a normal mother with children, or an elderly person down there at nighttime. Believe it or not there are many people that are turned off/frightened by the people in Gore Park, you can't always just think about yourself.