Gore Park

[adam]

With the kind of development LRT will promote, it will push up rent prices and leave those below the poverty line with no option but to move somewhere else. So why market it to them? I see gentrification written all over LRT. Anyone agree?

[geoff's two cents]

Yes and no in my opinion, adam. It's kind of a chicken and egg question, isn't it? Given that the Gore is probably the nicest place in the core to spend time without spending money, I can't picture those without money just up and moving on their own. Given the demographic downtown, I would think this would make the gentrification process more gradual than it might be in a city with less endemic issues with poverty. What will happen first? Will people who don't spend money find somewhere else to go (if there is, indeed, anywhere else for them to go), or will businesses and/or the city take the initiative in displacing some of the less reputable businesses that line the city's main commercial corridor? How would LRT play into this?

Don't get me wrong - I think LRT is great, possibly the best thing the city could do to help itself. It would be probably the most significant transportation decision made since that which changed the roads to one-way.

I don't think good public transit will solve every problem afflicting the core, however. Most of the people I know in town (mid-20s people at that) still adhere to what I would say are outdated notions of what downtown Hamilton is - in fact, what urban life anywhere amounts to. They prefer the more sanitized neighborhoods in Westdale, Oakville, Ancaster, Dundas, even Burlington. Even downtown Toronto doesn't fare too well (Fortunately, I also know people who do not adhere to this model). In general, most I've met have ideas about the city (as scary, unsafe, etc.) that were current in other major urban centres like New York and Vancouver twenty years ago, that have long since been displaced by much more upbeat notions of city living. I don't know exactly why this is. . .

Granted, there will likely always be at least some people who prefer the suburban lifestyle, but until a large proportion of citizens change their mind about the city (and about urban life generally), and there's actually a sizable market for downtown living in market (not social housing) condominiums, I think many of the issues we see today are going to be around for awhile. Maybe there's still something of a GTA-suburban psychology here, even though Hamilton is itself a large urban area on its own - I don't know. Let's hope LRT plays a huge role in changing this mentality, but it can't do that on its own.

[raisethehammer]

the goal is not the shove aside those who are less fortunate or not part of the same socio-economic class as 'me'.
the goal is to create a more vibrant place full of people, events, music, art, shopping, dining and culture.
Montreal is full of 'weirdos'. As is NYC, Toronto, Vancouver, Portland etc.... any city with vibrant pedestrian districts always has a ton of 'other types' as well.
That's the goal...not a bigger version of Borington full of upper class white folks that might run away screaming at the sight of some graffiti.

[geoff's two cents]

Agreed, rth. I hope you don't think I'm for shoving anybody aside. . . The mix is just what keeps a city interesting. Otherwise, the core would kind of just be a glorified mall, wouldn't it?

[adam]

In the interest of playing the other side, consider this... fast forward 10-20 years when LRT is in full swing and rent starts going up and up all along the LRT line. Will the city intervene when the owner of the Terraces on King wants to change it from subsidized housing to yuppy condos?

[geoff's two cents]

If there is a need for downtown social housing in 10-20 years, then the city would be foolish not to intervene on behalf of its poorer citizens. A lack of quality social housing and rapid gentrification is a problem Vancouver has had to deal with for some time now (and one which the city is now addressing by building a lot of - albeit architecturally stylish - non-market units). Stuffing the core with shiny new highrises and leaving the underclass in DTES slums was a significant contributing factor to the DTES poverty.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by adam

In the interest of playing the other side, consider this... fast forward 10-20 years when LRT is in full swing and rent starts going up and up all along the LRT line. Will the city intervene when the owner of the Terraces on King wants to change it from subsidized housing to yuppy condos?

The owner only needs to keep the property subsidized for 20 years, as part of their agreement to build and receive certain funds. The city will have no right to intervene on the type of tenant the owner chooses to seek after that time.

They might offer to negotiate a new agreement, but they can't "intervene" after the agreement is completed.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

Wait, what?

To loiter is to stand idly about; linger aimlessly; to proceed slowly or with many stops.

Isn't that exactly what we would want to encourage in a public plaza?

Or is the issue not the loitering per se but the particular people who presently happen to enjoy loitering at the Gore?

I think you are confusing loiterers and customers.

There's a fundamental difference between those who wend their way through downtown lingering (not loitering) here and there, and who have a desire to spend money, and conduct business (legal business). They are customers. And those lingering "aimlessly" with no desire to spend money. They are loiterers.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

Agreed, rth. I hope you don't think I'm for shoving anybody aside. . . The mix is just what keeps a city interesting. Otherwise, the core would kind of just be a glorified mall, wouldn't it?

exactly. This is what Rob MacIsaac said before leaving as mayor of Burlington.
He said he was pleased with some progress downtown, but lamented that their downtown wasn't much more than an upscale boutique mall and didn't offer much for large segments of the population.
He's right. That's why I never go there. It's very niche and geared towards a small segment of the population.
That's the last thing I'd want to see in downtown Hamilton.

[flar]

Technically a lot of the "undesirables" in Gore Park are not loitering, since they are conducting business. It's just incredible how ineffective the police cameras are. The drug trade has been almost completely unaffected by them. Cops on foot all day every day are the best bet. The undesirable elements don't like the police and will find somewhere else to hang out if there are cops there all the time.

I think loitering is fine though, public spaces are gathering places, places to hang out. There's no need for everyone to be spending money down there, downtown is about more than shopping and business.

[FairHamilton]

If the business they are conducting is not legal, then they are also loitering.

I agree there's nothing better than a cop walking the beat in a problem area. The businesses will appreciate it, the customers will appreciate it, and the general public will appreciate it. It's a win-win-win. You don't need many, just a pair to patrol the core areas, while cruisers, bike police patrol the periphery.

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by adam

With the kind of development LRT will promote, it will push up rent prices and leave those below the poverty line with no option but to move somewhere else. So why market it to them? I see gentrification written all over LRT. Anyone agree?

Higher property values are an inevitable consequence of urban renewal. In a healthy city the downtown core is the most expensive area to rent. We have it all ass-backwards here.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by flar

Technically a lot of the "undesirables" in Gore Park are not loitering, since they are conducting business. It's just incredible how ineffective the police cameras are. The drug trade has been almost completely unaffected by them. Cops on foot all day every day are the best bet. The undesirable elements don't like the police and will find somewhere else to hang out if there are cops there all the time.

I think loitering is fine though, public spaces are gathering places, places to hang out. There's no need for everyone to be spending money down there, downtown is about more than shopping and business.

I agree wholeheartedly. Downtown is not a mall. Try hanging out in a mall for any length of time and you'll have security eyeing you for just hanging out.
I want to be free to hang out and read a book in Gore Park for hours if I choose without someone coming by to tell me to 'hurry it along'.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Berklon

I don't go downtown that often (outside of using the GO Train everyday) so I can't say how bad it is or isn't. I know a few people who have the same impression as you.

However, in my 5 minute walk from Union Station to my place of work in downtown Toronto - I see a buttload of these "creepy and weird looking people" every day. Many homeless people sleeping on sidewalks, pan-handlers with major issues, people reciting the bible loudly as evidence to the end of the world, etc. Hell, for a long time there was this older man (crack/meth user?) who would constantly run up and down the underground path system breathing very heavily and yelling utter nonsense.

The people on their way to work seem to be totally unphased by it. It's just part of the scenery - they accept it and move on. It seems that Hamilton gets the bad rap while Toronto gets a pass for these things.

With Toronto you have to worry about a drive-by shootings downtown. I missed a food court shooting that resulted in a hostage situation outside of Union Station by only 5 minutes on my daily commute.

Downtown seems pretty safe in comparison.

I will agree with this, but I believe it comes down to the reputation of the city. Toronto is honestly known for being one of the most amazing and wonderful cities in the world, with its skyline, its culture, etc.

Hamilton, is FAR from that. Most outsiders who have heard of Hamilton instantly have a negative image of the city, such as the steel mills or Barton St. I believe it is all about image changing. It is much harder to change your opinion of a negative opinion compared to a positive one. I'm in Toronto at least 10 times a year in the downtown, and honestly, I see plenty of homeless people, but I don't think twice about them. Instead, I look up at the skyscrapers, at the neat path system, the skydome, etc. Whenever I'm in downtown Hamilton, on average probably 100 times a year, I notice the homeless and depressed looking people, the Ghetto Connaught.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I agree wholeheartedly. Downtown is not a mall. Try hanging out in a mall for any length of time and you'll have security eyeing you for just hanging out.
I want to be free to hang out and read a book in Gore Park for hours if I choose without someone coming by to tell me to 'hurry it along'.

If you are reading a book then you are not loitering. You have a purpose, i.e. reading a book.

[omro]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I want to be free to hang out and read a book in Gore Park for hours if I choose without someone coming by to tell me to 'hurry it along'.

Which of Hamilton's many little parks are good for book reading in summer?

Is there a thread devoted to Hamilton's parks in general that would contain this information?

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

If you are reading a book then you are not loitering. You have a purpose, i.e. reading a book.

ok, I want to be free to sit there and do nothing.
Quite often I just grab a bench and sit and watch the world go by.
That's what downtowns are for.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

ok, I want to be free to sit there and do nothing.
Quite often I just grab a bench and sit and watch the world go by.
That's what downtowns are for.

I assume you will not be doing that day after day, and I assume you will settle in with a coffee and snack at some point, or perhaps lunch from a local establishment.

I think we are splitting hairs and I think we all know what is deemed societal acceptable to be doing in any area of the public city.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Quote
Cops on foot all day every day are the best bet. The undesirable elements don't like the police and will find somewhere else to hang out if there are cops there all the time.

Agree whole-heartedly Flar--the police would dearly love to have the resources to take this approach to tackling street-level crime. Nonetheless, in addition to a lack of resources, the police are often confronted with a lack of community engagment on this issue. Moreover, while the so-called "broken windows" approach to tackling crime has proven effective, it has a considerable number of those who oppose it (including some who've posted here in the past)...it all comes back to the old argument of "why are you picking on me when there are serious criminals out there?"

It is great to think of downtown as a perfect mosaic of life, commerce, art, etc. However, there is a tipping point where a certain aspect of "social diversity" begins to alienate more people than it attracts. While it isn't desirable to "push aside" folks--when people with money to spend stop coming downtown--you have a serious problem that no amount of public spaces or rebuilt sidewalks can fix. I have beat the drum a number of times using my own parents' as an example--slowly but surely downtown simply stopped providing them with what they needed from a commerce standpoint...and they were people who genuinely wanted to support downtown businesses (and did for many years). Compounding the problem, downtown began to increase in popularity as a "harbour" of sorts for various types of people who...let's say they aren't the type of people I'd want my 65 year old mother having to deal with while she walked down King Street or through the Gore. The last time I was downtown I was asked for money four times between the King/James entrance of Jackson Square and Cheapies--while I may be willing to tolerate it--there are large numbers of people who simply won't (nor should they have to).

[adam]

Unlike fastcars, I actually live in Hamilton and go downtown all the time. There are reasons why there are so many bums that ask for change and these social issues should not be ignored by government. The unemployment rate is pushing 7% - the highest its been in 3 years (since Harper took office)

And when Toronto was my regular haunt, I recall being asked for money a lot more than currently in Hamilton.