White House releases new decennial MSA/CSA delineations

[TempleGuy1000]

I'm almost certain Cecil County has moved from being apart of Philadelphia's CSA to the MSA as a part of Wilmington's metro division. I don't remember ever remember the MSA including MD. Is Philly the only 4 state metro? I didn't look that closely at all, but I didn't think I saw any other.

In 2020, the population of Cecil was 103,000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_County,_Maryland

[Quixote]

^ DC spans the District, VA, MD, and WV at the MSA level, and includes PA at the CSA level.

[Quixote]

What's the requirement for being included in a CSA? A 15% commute share to a county within the MSA?

I don't know why, but I find OK's inclusion within DFW a bit crazy. Durant, OK to McKinney, TX is 63.5 miles. I get people making the schlep from the Central Valley to San Jose. But it's not like people are being forced to live farther away (like in some podunk area with less going on than CA's Central Valley cities) because they're being priced out of DFW.

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Originally Posted by Quixote

What's the requirement for being included in a CSA? A 15% commute share to a county within the MSA?

I don't know why, but I find OK's inclusion within DFW a bit crazy. Durant, OK to McKinney, TX is 63.5 miles. I get people making the schlep from the Central Valley to San Jose. But it's not like people are being forced to live farther away (like in some podunk area with less going on than CA's Central Valley cities) because they're being priced out of DFW.

I work in downtown Birmingham and we have plenty of people that commute 60+ miles each way, it's certainly not an unusual phenomenon.

Also, Atlanta's CSA extends into Alabama, so DFW extending into OK isn't all that uncommon either.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

If a metro area is significantly tighter, then isn’t it just the urban area and what, then, is the point of having metropolitan areas at all?

Maybe there isn't one.

I just think that including solid cornbelt counties like Jasper, Newton, Grundy, and Dekalb into anything labelled "metropolitan" is profoundly stupid.


Have you ever spent any time in Newton County, IN?

I have. Quite a bit in fact.

It's a marvelous place if you love corn, but "metropolitan" it is most decidedly not.

[pj3000]

More accurate thread title

White House releases new decennial MSA/CSA delineations (to the delight and consternation of guys who haven't gotten laid in more than a decade)

[Crawford]

Have the inclusion rules changed over time? This is all so odd.

So Sullivan County, an empty wilderness county with no major towns, is now part of the NY CSA? But the main traditional commuter belt isn't even part of the MSA or CSA?

Sullivan County is so rural and isolated that a work colleague bought 150 scenic acres for less than $1,000 an acre maybe a dozen years ago. Prices have certainly risen, but it's still Catskills wilderness, with more waterfalls than commute hubs. It's permanently protected land. Will never have sprawl. Are they counting moose now?

Meanwhile they separated Coastal CT into separate CSAs, even though the Greenwich-New Haven corridor has been 100% built-up/urbanized since the 1920's? And the NY-New Haven corridor is the busiest commuter rail line in the Western hemisphere and the archetypical Wall Street commuter belt? This is the traditional wealth corridor and the oldest developed portion of the region. It's like saying Miami and Fort Lauderdale are in separate CSAs.

[Tom In Chicago]

I wish someone would explain this all to me like I was 5. . . because when it comes to the census stuff that's how old I am - and have been - mentally for my entire life. . . I don't get it. . .

. . .

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Quixote

I don't believe Pike County, PA was part of NYC's MSA to begin with. It's still part of its CSA though as "Hemlock Farms, PA Micropolitan Statistical Area." Kenosha and Calvert are also still part of the Chicago and DC/Baltimore CSAs, respectively.

NYC CSA lost New Haven and Litchfield Counties in CT but gained Sullivan County, NY.

Yes, Pike County, PA, was part of the NY MSA.

[Obadno]

I really wish the Census Bureau would ditch Counties as the basis of their population stats and growth their own custom criteria.

It really makes western state MSA's and CSA"s wonky as hell.

[tech12]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I really wish the Census Bureau would ditch Counties as the basis of their population stats and growth their own custom criteria.

It really makes western state MSA's and CSA"s wonky as hell.

Census tracts already exist, and seem like they would make a much better form of measurement. Also, the over-reliance on commuting rates to a central city seems misguided, at least when it comes to polycentric metros.

[JoninATX]

Originally Posted by pj3000

More accurate thread title

White House releases new decennial MSA/CSA delineations (to the delight and consternation of guys who haven't gotten laid in more than a decade)

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by Quixote

NYC MSA:

New York City
Nassau County, NY
Suffolk County, NY
Westchester County, NY
Rockland County, NY
Putnam County, NY

Bergen County, NJ
Hudson County, NJ
Essex County, NJ
Union County, NJ
Morris County, NJ
Passaic County, NJ
Sussex County, NJ
Middlesex County, NJ
Monmouth County, NJ
Ocean County, NJ
Somerset County, NJ
Hunterdon County, NJ

NYC CSA:

+

Orange County, NY
Dutchess County, NY
Ulster County, NY
Sullivan County, NY

Mercer County, NJ

Western Connecticut Planning Region, CT
Greater Bridgeport Planning Region, CT

Pike County, PA

Mercer county is still part of NYC CSA? Philadelphia homers in shambles.
They should just make Philadelphia as part of NYC CSA and get it over with.

[edale]

Originally Posted by SpawnOfVulcan

I work in downtown Birmingham and we have plenty of people that commute 60+ miles each way, it's certainly not an unusual phenomenon.

Also, Atlanta's CSA extends into Alabama, so DFW extending into OK isn't all that uncommon either.

Why would people need to commute over an hour in a small, cheap metro like Birmingham? I certainly understand how that type of commute can happen in a large, expensive metro area, where the only affordable housing is found quite a distance from the core city, but that isn't Birmingham's situation.

[Crawford]

Western Connecticut Planning Region, CT
Greater Bridgeport Planning Region, CT

What does this even mean? I thought Census uses counties for MSA and CSA. Is this just Fairfield and Litchfield counties?

Or do they mean the RPA (Regional Planning Association) boundaries? But looking it up, the RPA boundaries are Fairfield and New Haven counties only. I thought New Haven-Hartford is a (bizarre) new CSA.

Can someone explain this to the clueless forumers here? (and I'm definitely included)

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Maybe there isn't one.

I just think that including solid cornbelt counties like Jasper, Newton, Grundy, and Dekalb into anything labelled "metropolitan" is profoundly stupid.


Have you ever spent any time in Newton County, IN?

I have. Quite a bit in fact.

It's a marvelous place if you love corn, but "metropolitan" it is most decidedly not.

One [I][/I]of my roommates in Chicago was from a collar corn belt town, so yes I have spent time in that environment.

On your mental framing: have you ever considered that what is being called “metropolitan” here isn’t the corn belt collar counties (as in “these are metropolitan counties”) but rather only the core counties (as in “these counties “have a ‘metropolitan reach’ over their neighbors)?

Take this definition of “metropolitan” for instance:

Of, relating to, or denoting the parent state of a colony or dependency.

And rephrase it to be city-specific:

Of, relating to, or denoting the primate city of a region or dependency.
.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

And rephrase it to be city-specific:

Of, relating to, or denoting the primate city of a region or dependency.
.

I guess I've always found "region" to be too nebulous for these kinds of things.

I mean, Chicago is the primate city of the Midwest, so why not call nebraska part of the Chicago MSA too?

They grow a fuck-ton of corn out there as well.



All I know is that when I travel from Chicagoland down to Newton County on US-41, there is a very palpable sense that I have left one realm, and entered another.

The fact that there are a relative handful of insane dingleberries down there who are willing to commute 100+ miles per day does nothing to change that very palpable realm-shift.

Maybe these things are easier to dilineate in the Midwest, as there are only two kinds of places here: corn and not corn, and ~85% is the former.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I'm almost certain Cecil County has moved from being apart of Philadelphia's CSA to the MSA as a part of Wilmington's metro division. I don't remember ever remember the MSA including MD. Is Philly the only 4 state metro? I didn't look that closely at all, but I didn't think I saw any other.

In 2020, the population of Cecil was 103,000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_County,_Maryland

Cecil County has always been a part of the Philadelphia MSA because it has always been connected with Wilmington (really Newark), which itself has always been part of the Philadelphia MSA.

I still think Wilmington should be its own MSA. Anyone here seeing day-to-day activity sees the separation between Wilmington and Philadelphia, unlike the tangible connection between Camden and Philadelphia.

I would say Salem County's connection with Wilmington is maybe just as strong as its connection with Philadelphia. Pennsville is what connects the county with Wilmington, but the northern half of the county is connected with Philadelphia.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

Cecil County has always been a part of the Philadelphia MSA because it has always been connected with Wilmington (really Newark), which itself has always been part of the Philadelphia MSA.

I still think Wilmington should be its own MSA. Anyone here seeing day-to-day activity sees the separation between Wilmington and Philadelphia, unlike the tangible connection between Camden and Philadelphia.

I would say Salem County's connection with Wilmington is maybe just as strong as its connection with Philadelphia. Pennsville is what connects the county with Wilmington, but the northern half of the county is connected with Philadelphia.

Your obsession with Delaware being its own thing is weird. It's a great little state. It's also a suburb of Philadelphia.

As the crow flies, the Delaware state line is what, 15 miles from the Philadelphia city line? Southern Delaware and Chester Counties (PA) are very intertwined with Delaware and Wilmington, specifically. It's one region.

[SteveD]

Goodbye Lamar County! (Atlanta MSA). It's been nice knowin' ya!

Lamar is northwest of Macon, about 39,000 people. I suppose, with the Atlanta MSA growing by ~80K per year, this loss of Lamar will have the net effect of cutting in half our numerical population growth this coming year.

Macon is about 70 miles south of Atlanta.