Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[J.OT13]

This should have been high-floor LRT or Light-Metro. We should have done more to reduce or remove curves. I think it's B.S. that when the Transitway was built, they had LRT conversion in mind.

The City was obsessed with LRT. They called their diesel train LRT (it's not), then they planned an actual LRT to replace it. When that was canceled, they absolutely wanted an east-west LRT to replace that plan. Had to be LRT. Ottawa is too small for a Metro, they said. And had to be low-floor, because it looks better on suburban streets (?) or because it can run on streets (?), despite the fact that Edmonton and Calgary have street running high floor LRT.

I don't know if there's a train out there today that can do the job. A low-floor LRT, 100m-120m long that can carry (ultimately) 24k phpd at speeds up to 100 km/h. What we had is the closest thing, and it has glaring issues.

There are European light-metros that use low-floor LRVs, but I'm not familiar enough with them to compare.

[Harley613]

People will be rioting in the streets when this line is built out and only operational 80% of the time. There will be so much more to go wrong soon.

[Acajack]

Really hard to believe this system (or any suitable system) can't deal with curves.

[J.OT13]

At least Stage 2 has far fewer curves. Once the train gets past Blair and the flyover, it's pretty much straight to Trim. In the west, Scott trench, the Byron tunnel are pretty straight. Only significant curves in the west is past Lincoln Fields.

[lrt's friend]

Our LRVs are coming to Toronto soon, scheduled for both the Finch and Hurontario lines, both well on the way towards completion.

Why was the first line originally supposed to run north-south? So, we could learn how to run electric trains without totally overturning our transit system. Wasn't there some wisdom in this? By removing 80% of buses from downtown in one step, we were putting enormous pressure on the success of the replacement trains and then we chose a completely new train model. We have seriously damaged the credibility of OC Transpo, which may take decades to recover from.

Who is going downtown by transit right now, who aren't required to go there? We don't want people to drive downtown, but our transit system has to be considered an unreliable failure.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by daud

honest question:

Is there a train in the market that could replace our trains and run on our system?

Comments (not a train expert at all)

It really seems to me Alstom delivered a prototype product that didn't meet the spec (higher speeds and higher volume). That's on them.

It also seems to me that our city procurement chose a solution that had elements that were simply just prototypes. Modified from the original models to increase speed and capacity. Hindsight is 20/20 but we should have stuck to something that was tested and known. That part is on us.

I, like many others have been calling this system a lemon for years now. Some of the other issues are not "deal breakers" per say but this bearing issue seems to be a critical one. Wilson Lo on CTV today admitted there are going to likely be some very difficult decisions and conversations to be had about this line and any long term solution.

I love this system when it works, the trains look awesome, the tunnel and stations for the most part look awesome too but this is probably the biggest mess our city has ever managed to get themselves into-and there have been a few!

I have no idea, but would not that most cities use a high floor light metro technology in this setting. Turin, Copenhagen, DLR in London come to mind.

[roger1818]

I seem to remember reading that during the Public Inquiry, Alstom said that they were brought into the consortium late (to replace a different trainset vendor) and that as a result, the design of the track didn't match the design criteria of the trainset. I don't think it was made clear what the issue was (at least I didn't see the details), but I can only assume that it was related to the tight, high speed curves between Lees and Tremblay stations.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I seem to remember reading that during the Public Inquiry, Alstom said that they were brought into the consortium late (to replace a different trainset vendor) and that as a result, the design of the track didn't match the design criteria of the trainset. I don't think it was made clear what the issue was (at least I didn't see the details), but I can only assume that it was related to the tight, high speed curves between Lees and Tremblay stations.

They were brought in late, but they still designed the Citadis Spirit specifically for this project.

Tangentially related fun fact: the vendor they replaced (CAF) has trains that are used on Sydney's light rail system that were pulled from service in late 2021 due to cracks discovered in the bogie assemblies, and as far as I know they have yet to return to service. (Cracks on CAF train bogies are pretty widespread actually). Edit: they returned to service at the end of last year, but were out for over a year.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

They were brought in late, but they still designed the Citadis Spirit specifically for this project.

Tangentially related fun fact: the vendor they replaced (CAF) has trains that are used on Sydney's light rail system that were pulled from service in late 2021 due to cracks discovered in the bogie assemblies, and as far as I know they have yet to return to service. (Cracks on CAF train bogies are pretty widespread actually). Edit: they returned to service at the end of last year, but were out for over a year.

I think the lesson is, the vast majority of train manufacturers are incompetent these days. Look at the issues Bombardier had with the Azure in Montreal and Toronto Rockets, or the new Toronto Streetcars. Or NYC with the new Kawasakis.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think the lesson is, the vast majority of train manufacturers are incompetent these days. Look at the issues Bombardier had with the Azure in Montreal and Toronto Rockets, or the new Toronto Streetcars. Or NYC with the new Kawasakis.

It is the complexity of the technology. Electric rail has been around since the late 1880s. You can read in the newspaper archives, that track was laid and within a few days, streetcars were operating, when the train technology was much simpler. Now, the technology is so complex, it is hard to keep trains operating properly, and I am sure that individual trains need to be taken out of service regularly and it receives no publicity because it has little or no effect on service. Of course, early on we heard about it all the time, when they could not keep the promised 15 trains in service. We have since given up on 15 trains.

[jchilds72]

If the Stadler FLIRTs work out, maybe one of their low floor, electric models would work?

[DTcrawler]

I think the biggest issue right now is that it seems Alstom has not been able to isolate the specific root cause of the issue. Whether it's the curves, the weight of the trains, the speed, or any combination of the three, something is causing unexpected stress on the components that keep failing.

What I wonder, though, is what's stopping us from forcing them to replace the deteriorating components more regularly, at their expense? Sure, it doesn't solve the root problem, but it stops us from having to take trains out of service for days at a time every few months. For example, it was said the current issue was noted on a bogie assembly during routine 150,000km inspection. So, double or even triple the frequency of the inspection and replace the parts in question before they develop issues.

[YOWflier]

What if the issue was caused by excessive weight due to large (Bluesfest) crowds? That would simultaneously be “good” (less bad) and bad for different reasons.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

I think the biggest issue right now is that it seems Alstom has not been able to isolate the specific root cause of the issue. Whether it's the curves, the weight of the trains, the speed, or any combination of the three, something is causing unexpected stress on the components that keep failing.

What I wonder, though, is what's stopping us from forcing them to replace the deteriorating components more regularly, at their expense? Sure, it doesn't solve the root problem, but it stops us from having to take trains out of service for days at a time every few months. For example, it was said the current issue was noted on a bogie assembly during routine 150,000km inspection. So, double or even triple the frequency of the inspection and replace the parts in question before they develop issues.

Well, yeah. They made promises. It's their problem if keeping those promises is far harder and more expensive than they thought.

Originally Posted by YOWflier

What if the issue was caused by excessive weight due to large (Bluesfest) crowds? That would simultaneously be “good” (less bad) and bad for different reasons.

We had those sorts of loads pre-pandemic and at the time, wheel bearings were not identified as an issue. They failed the first few times at the height of the pandemic when ridership was nearly non-existent.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The ultimate solution might require a new bridge over the Rideau (pointing more to the east) and relocation of Hurdman Station, a very expensive solution.

The problem has it’s origins in the lies the OC Transpo and the politicians made when the transitway was being built as an alternative to a rail based system by claiming the alignments were readily adaptable to rail transit. The other problem is trying to build too big a system for Stage 1. The result was the city did almost everything on the cheap. The Rideau River bridge was only refurbished instead of being replaced. The bridge should have been built curved and the Hurdman station should have been built slightly further north. The crossover switches between Hurdman and Tremblay should be removed and relocated east of Tremblay. This would allow a smoother curve since the short straight section where the crossover could be eliminated.

The city is going to have to spend some money rebuild sections of the track. This is no different than the silly curves that replaced the original CPR right of way. The reconstruction in Stage 2 has at least solved the problem although the city continues to ignore double tracking more sections of the original line.

[Horus]

The latest update is, uh, no update?

From CTV

No back-to-service plan yet for Ottawa's LRT
Ted Raymond
CTV News Ottawa Digital Multi-Skilled Journalist
Josh Pringle
CTV News Ottawa Digital Multi-Skilled Journalist


Updated July 19, 2023 4:30 p.m. EDT
Published July 19, 2023 9:21 a.m. EDT


There is no back-to-service plan yet for the Confederation Line LRT after it was abruptly shut down during the Monday afternoon rush, a new memo reveals.

In a memo to the mayor and councillors released Wednesday afternoon, transportation services general manager Renée Amilcar said Rideau Transit Group (RTG) is still developing a return to service plan.

There was no word on any timeline for when a plan might be developed or how long the work being undertaken will take to complete.

....

Amilcar's Wednesday memo said that the axle hub assemblies of nine light rail vehicles have been inspected and no issue was found. The underbodies of 35 vehicles have been inspected for signs of excess grease, and no sign was found.

The axle hub from the vehicle that had the issue, prompting the system-wide shutdown, was sent to the manufacturer for a detailed investigation.

A test train will be coupled with a light rail vehicle equipped with "smart bugs" to gather additional data about the line. A test train ran for much of the day Tuesday to gather data on the wear and tear that the wheel hub assembly of the trains may be experiencing. Tests also measures the width and height of the rails relative to each other. That data still needs to be analyzed.

Amilcar said Tuesday that service would not resume until all inspections are complete and all data are analyzed.

...

[Horus]

I understand the part about wanting to get and analyze all of the track data they are collecting, but shouldn't they consider re-starting service once enough vehicles have been inspected and cleared (again, in conjunction with assurance that the track meets threshold/standard)?

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by Horus

I understand the part about wanting to get and analyze all of the track data they are collecting, but shouldn't they consider re-starting service once enough vehicles have been inspected and cleared (again, in conjunction with assurance that the track meets threshold/standard)?

Why? The peasants can eat cake drive.

[Truenorth00]

This thing probably requires infrastructure fixes and/or a new set of rolling stock. The sooner they admit this, the better it is for all of us. They can ship this fleet to the GTA and use it on LRT lines without curves.

[OTownandDown]

What if the entire issue is the non-turning bogies? Can we just switch them out and see how it goes? Newly delivered Citadis trainsets elsewhere have articulating bogies.

I remember riding the DLR in London, and it's the curviest thing ever. Its a 'high floor light rail'. Their reliability was sh*t in the beginning, but over 30 years has become very reliable and has expanded several times.