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  #1601  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2023, 4:52 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
Surely the plan has complete grade separation if they will spend a cool billion on a tunnel? I know the plan is for other levels of government to pay but is there no voice saying directly that this plan is insane? Is that what these shenanigans are about?
It's the insane inflation on infrastructure projects. Nothing we can do about it. Canceling now and building something else in another 10 years will probably cost more for less.

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
In the parallel universe where the Evil Acajack exists, the dominant theory sub in my head is that the city is subtly looking for an "out" of this project.
Bélisle is trying to find an out. And she may get it if the Feds decide they want unanimous support (which should not be needed in a democracy of simple majorities).
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  #1602  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2023, 5:45 PM
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To answer YOWetal, none of the simulations I can recall seeing have grade separations for intersections where the tramway would run above-ground. But yes, one of the options is to run it in a tunnel across downtown Ottawa only, a block or two south of Wellington St.
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  #1603  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2023, 6:03 PM
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To answer YOWetal, none of the simulations I can recall seeing have grade separations for intersections where the tramway would run above-ground. But yes, one of the options is to run it in a tunnel across downtown Ottawa only, a block or two south of Wellington St.
At this point, I think it's safe to say the tunnel option in Ottawa has been tossed aside in favour of Wellington and the loop, which will be far cheaper and offer more capacity ultimately.

There are a few points where the trams will avoid car traffic by using the old Hull Electric RoW, for example behind UQO. RailFans Canada has the route mapped-out on their website. Not quite as detailed as the O-Train and other systems where station platforms, tracks, crossovers and rail yards are show, but it still gives a good idea.

https://map.railfans.ca/#12.44/45.41862/-75.77801

Kind of wish that instead of having Line A turn west to Eardley, it would connect up with the west terminus of the Plateau Line B to form a loop.
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  #1604  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2023, 7:11 PM
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Boulevard du Plateau doesn't look bad at all for tramway intersections, but other roads (St-Raymond, Aylmer, Principale, Wilfrid-Lavigne) will be pretty bad.

Of course, while this is not wishful thinking my money is on the project being scrapped and a rebooted westward extension of Rapibus coming forward in a couple of years. Along the northern corridor through the Plateau is more likely than the southern routing.

We can probably do something for quite a bit less than 1 billion dollars.
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  #1605  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2023, 8:13 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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It's the insane inflation on infrastructure projects. Nothing we can do about it. Canceling now and building something else in another 10 years will probably cost more for less.
No inflation doesn't explain this. It is a wildly extravagant project for Gatineau's size that came from a brief period that seems to be closing where the attitude was build anything that will help with climate change combined with the naturally inferiority complex Gatineau has with Ottawa. There are small cities in Europe building Tram systems but even there rarely for this much money given the small population being served. In the north american car centric context it is unheard of. North American context matters because even of the people that live mere meters from a station in Aylmer very few will have a daily commute served by this system. Let alone the wider cachment area. Those currently taking the bus to Portage or Esplanade Laurier will take the new improved tram that probably adds time for as many as it cuts and the rest will continue to drive to Kanata, Orleans etc. I guess it will cut costs for STO which if it doesn't have to pay capital costs make sense.
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  #1606  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2023, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
Surely the plan has complete grade separation if they will spend a cool billion on a tunnel? I know the plan is for other levels of government to pay but is there no voice saying directly that this plan is insane? Is that what these shenanigans are about?
I don't think anyone actually believes the tunnel is reasonable, there's no way anyone would fund it. It's a big ask to put a tram on Wellington, so you need to justify it by pointing at the costly alternative.
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  #1607  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2023, 8:37 PM
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The tunnel would make sense if we finally made Ottawa-Gatineau a federal district and OC Transpo became OG Transpo. Imagine a Gatineau tram running all the way under Montreal Rd. One can dream...
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  #1608  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2023, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
No inflation doesn't explain this. It is a wildly extravagant project for Gatineau's size that came from a brief period that seems to be closing where the attitude was build anything that will help with climate change combined with the naturally inferiority complex Gatineau has with Ottawa. There are small cities in Europe building Tram systems but even there rarely for this much money given the small population being served. In the north american car centric context it is unheard of. North American context matters because even of the people that live mere meters from a station in Aylmer very few will have a daily commute served by this system. Let alone the wider cachment area. Those currently taking the bus to Portage or Esplanade Laurier will take the new improved tram that probably adds time for as many as it cuts and the rest will continue to drive to Kanata, Orleans etc. I guess it will cut costs for STO which if it doesn't have to pay capital costs make sense.
Transit inflation is far worse than regular inflation, and it does explain much of the rising costs.

Transit in Europe and Asia is far cheaper for a variety of reasons. We have to compare the STO tram with other North American projects, not Europe.

We only need to look at Ottawa to see how costs have risen to exorbitantly. Stage 1, a 12.5 km line with a 2.5 kilometer deep tunnel with three stations, along with large, high design overground station was $2.1 Billion. Stage 2, with similar tunneling, no new underground stations (Algonquin was mostly already built), much simpler station designs and much of it being the upgrading of an existing diesel line was $4B. Stage 3 is estimated at $4B for Barrhaven, only 10km and 7 stations.

So cost per kilometer for each of these:

Stage 1: $168 million
Stage 2: $113 million (cheaper, but far simpler project)
Stage 3 Barrhaven: $400 million (no tunneling, fewer stations, existing corridor for the most part)

STO Tram: $115 million (if the budget holds)

And some projects outside the NCR.

Quebec City Tram: $207 million (very similar to STO, but with 1.8 km tunnel that includes two stations)
Hamilton: $242 million (surface running)
Edmonton Valley West: $192 million (some elevated sections)
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  #1609  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2023, 9:03 PM
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Here is a perfect example of just how obscenely ridiculous transit infrastructure inflation has gotten. This was just posted on CBC. The REM East extension would cost 36 BILLION DOLLARS.

https://www-cbc-ca.cdn.ampproject.org/v/...ground-no-link-downtown-report-1.6896256
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  #1610  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2023, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Harley613 View Post
Here is a perfect example of just how obscenely ridiculous transit infrastructure inflation has gotten. This was just posted on CBC. The REM East extension would cost 36 BILLION DOLLARS.

https://www-cbc-ca.cdn.ampproject.org/v/...ground-no-link-downtown-report-1.6896256
Morons want to build it completely underground, so $1B per kilometer. Still, Ottawa's tunnel was maybe $300 million per kilometer, so still shows that bonkers transit inflation.
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  #1611  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2023, 12:49 PM
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Oui au tramway, mais avec une gouvernance révisée, plaide la mairesse Bélisle

Par Mathieu Bélanger, Le Droit
4 juillet 2023


Dans un effort de dissiper les doutes quant à ses intentions et celles de la mairesse de Gatineau, France Bélisle, le conseil municipal a majoritairement confirmé, mardi soir, son appui au tramway comme seul mode de transport structurant valide pour désengorger l’ouest de la ville à long terme. Seuls les conseillers Mike Duggan et Mario Aubé s’y sont opposés.

Cette profession de foi faisait suite à une demande formulée par le conseil d’administration de la Société de transport de l’Outaouais (STO) qui s’inquiétait des signaux contradictoires ayant publiquement circulé depuis que des tensions ont éclaté au grand jour, il y a deux semaines, entre la mairesse Bélisle et le transporteur public des Gatinois. Des propos tenus par des sources gouvernementales, tant au fédéral qu’au provincial, et la publication par Le Droit, lundi, du contenu d’une lettre envoyée par Mme Bélisle à la ministre des Transports du Québec, Geneviève Guilbault, ont aussi ajouté aux doutes entretenus par plusieurs élus quant aux réelles intentions de la mairesse dans ce dossier.

«Cela a toujours été clair pour moi, depuis que je suis en poste je travaille avec la résolution votée par le conseil municipal en 2018 qui s’était prononcé pour un tramway, a insisté Mme Bélisle. Je cours avec ce ballon depuis que j’ai été élue.»

Mme Bélisle s’est par ailleurs défendue de vouloir remettre en question le tracé préliminaire du tramway actuellement proposé par la STO. Elle a plutôt expliqué que sa demande à la ministre des Transports visait plutôt à considérer l’arrivée éventuelle du futur hôpital qui va générer entre 5000 et 8000 déplacements par jour en périphérie du centre-ville. «Ça ne veut pas dire qu’il faut prolonger le tramway jusque là, mais d’avoir une réflexion sur ce qu’on va faire pour desservir cet hôpital en matière de transport en commun», a-t-elle plaidé.

Gouvernance à revoir

La mairesse de Gatineau reconnaît cependant que des changements doivent être apportés à la gouvernance du projet de tramway. C’est d’ailleurs, selon elle, une des raisons expliquant la controverse qui a pris de l’ampleur dans les dernières semaines. «J’ai été surprise de voir le fédéral et le provincial dire que c’est la Ville qui retarde l’annonce [du financement de l’étude d’avant-projet], a affirmé Mme Bélisle. Ce que j’ai compris c’est qu’on se demande qui est le porteur de ballon, qu’on doit trouver le bon porteur de ballon et c’est pour ça qu’il faut se questionner sur la gouvernance du projet de tramway. […] On sait depuis un bout qu’on a des enjeux de gouvernance. C’est pour ça qu’on a mis en place le service de la mobilité qui permettra de clarifier qui doit s’occuper de quoi.» Dans sa lettre à la ministre Guilbeault, Mme Bélisle a demandé à ce que le bureau de projet du tramway, actuellement sous l’égide de la STO, soit intégré à ce nouveau service mis en place au sein de l’administration municipale.

«La STO a jusqu’ici fait son travail», a reconnu Mme Bélisle, mais elle a tenu à rappeler que le transporteur public n’a pas de pouvoir en matière d’aménagement du territoire à Gatineau. «À Québec, la Ville a demandé par décret de rapatrier le bureau de projet sous l’égide de la ville dans une perspective d’aménagement du territoire, a rappelé la mairesse de Gatineau. L’idée n’est pas nouvelle, elle a fait l’objet d’une discussion entre les directions de la Ville et de la STO.»

Publication du rapport final

Les conseillers et membres du conseil d’administration de la STO, Edmond Leclerc et Caroline Murray et Steven Boivin, ont affirmé que c’est la Ville de Gatineau qui empêchait depuis plusieurs mois la publication du rapport final de l’étude complémentaire du projet de tramway. «Ce rapport, c’est comme un coffre au trésor qu’on ne peut pas ouvrir», a lancé le conseiller Denis Girouard. «Il faut publier ce rapport, a ajouté M. Boivin. Il faut dire à nos partenaires à Québec et Ottawa qu’on veut un tramway, et pourquoi un veut un tramway.»

Pour le chef d’Action Gatineau, Steve Moran, la publication de ce rapport est une question de transparence et qu’elle est nécessaire pour faire avancer le dossier. «Il n’y a pas de raison de ne pas publier ce rapport, a ajouté M. Leclerc. C’est très décevant pour une équipe de projet de ne pas pouvoir exposer au grand jour le fruit de leurs recherches. […] Tous les choix qu’on fait sont politiques, et on pourrait faire un choix qui n’est pas basé sur la science, mais les experts nous disent que le seul transport structurant valide dans l’ouest est le tramway, donc oui, c’est un choix politique, mais basé sur la science.»

La mairesse Bélisle a ajouté qu’il n’y a pas que la science qui doit motiver une telle décision, mais aussi la variable des avantages par rapport aux coûts. Ces données n’apparaissent pas dans le rapport final de l’étude complémentaire, a-t-elle noté. «L’ensemble des données ne se limite pas à la science», a ajouté la mairesse.

Le conseil a finalement autorisé la publication du rapport final. Il devra toutefois d’abord être traité afin d’en retirer les informations stratégiques qui pourraient éventuellement avoir une incidence sur une stratégie d’approvisionnement.

https://www.ledroit.com/actualites/actua...esse-belisle-AISEHOPX3ZEZPPSZHXEF3AOA3U/
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  #1612  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2023, 5:26 AM
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Here's a great video from Reece Martin he posted back in December. Can't believe I hadn't seen it until now but don't recall it being discussed on this forum. I wasn't quite sure which thread was best to post this in, but seeing as plans for the Gatineau LRT seem to be up in the air right now, I thought this would be a good spot as the video offers an excellent re-think of the alignment for that project, along with some interesting ideas for upgrades and integration with the O-Train network as well. Highly recommend watching!

Video Link
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  #1613  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2023, 8:13 AM
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Here's a great video from Reece Martin he posted back in December. Can't believe I hadn't seen it until now but don't recall it being discussed on this forum. I wasn't quite sure which thread was best to post this in, but seeing as plans for the Gatineau LRT seem to be up in the air right now, I thought this would be a good spot as the video offers an excellent re-think of the alignment for that project, along with some interesting ideas for upgrades and integration with the O-Train network as well. Highly recommend watching!

Video Link
Its message 1533 in this same thread https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9804506&postcount=1533
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  #1614  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2023, 1:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DTcrawler View Post
Here's a great video from Reece Martin he posted back in December. Can't believe I hadn't seen it until now but don't recall it being discussed on this forum. I wasn't quite sure which thread was best to post this in, but seeing as plans for the Gatineau LRT seem to be up in the air right now, I thought this would be a good spot as the video offers an excellent re-think of the alignment for that project, along with some interesting ideas for upgrades and integration with the O-Train network as well. Highly recommend watching!

Video Link
I really don't like the idea that was presented in the video for a few reasons:
  • Spending money to upgrade the Rapibus, which isn't anywhere near capacity, and leaving other parts of the city with no higher order transit is just bad resource management.
  • Upgrading the Rapibus and whatever new corridor is added in the West end to the standard of the Trillium/Confed line (possibly automatized, and fully grade separated) would probably triple the overall cost of the project. If a tram is gonna be expensive, wait till it's basically a metro.
  • The tram's route was selected for a reason, most STO users are going downtown. Enabling people to go right to the East end is nice, but that 5-10% use case is not worth the extra money and smaller coverage.
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  #1615  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2023, 5:11 PM
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He's got some good ideas and I like the fact he didn't push for transferring everyone from Ottawa at Bayview in order to get to downtown Ottawa.

That's an interesting solution however it does mean that all trains in Gatineau will be either/or when it comes to going either to downtown Ottawa or downtown Hull.

Seems like a waste and also a missed opportunity for a downtown rapid transit link between the two cities' cores.
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  #1616  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2023, 5:28 PM
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The tunnel would make sense if we finally made Ottawa-Gatineau a federal district and OC Transpo became OG Transpo. Imagine a Gatineau tram running all the way under Montreal Rd. One can dream...
This is, in all seriousness, the only remotely plausible way there will ever be transit improvements in the urban east area, because the city that the urban east area is in, on its own, is quite content to let the urban east area rot.
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  #1617  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2023, 8:04 PM
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And when Quebec will be a foreign country,
where will be the custom on the transit link, midway in the tunnel?
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  #1618  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2023, 8:06 PM
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And when Quebec will be a foreign country,
where will be the custom on the transit link, midway in the tunnel?
I'm sure this is a joke right?
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  #1619  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2023, 8:09 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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And when Quebec will be a foreign country,
where will be the custom on the transit link, midway in the tunnel?
Hopefully we will get along better than East and West Germany and they managed.
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  #1620  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2023, 8:26 PM
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Hopefully we will get along better than East and West Germany and they managed.
Assuming we entertain the idea of Ottawa and Gatineau being in different countries, there are plenty of examples around the world of urban and inter-urban transportation crossing international borders.

That said, I don't think East and West Berlin had transit running across the border.

Things were pretty tightly restricted and I remember visiting ghost U-Bahn stations near the Berlin Wall where lines that used to go from east to west began dead-ending at the border as of 1961.
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