Jericho Lands Planning Program

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by fredinno

This is a good place to put the 'town center' of Point Grey. IMO, Vancouver needs more suburban town centers than just Oakridge, which would increase max density here

What is the definition of "suburban town center"?

IMO, every Skytrain station in Vancouver (including unbuilt stations along Broadway, 41, 49, Hastings) should see anything within 500 metres re-zoned for high-density mixed use developments (e.g., 40+ stories). The gaps between these high-density areas and every arterial should allow up to six story mixed use, while the city's current plan of four or six units on every SFH lot should be implemented.

Vancouver proper is too small and too close to downtown for any neighbourhood to retain the "suburban" feel long-term. And what the town centers are accomplishing in Burnaby or the Tri-Cities, where you have a town of density around stations but no change to SFH neighbourhoods isn't enough.

Honestly, Vancouver should take this Jericho proposal, and copy and paste it onto the Expo and Canada lines. Use the east and west clusters as a model for the blocks surrounding the stations, and allow the same mid-rise buildings on the rest of the corridors. The Jericho FSR is 2.5; Vancouver would no long have a housing crisis if the city had an overall FSR approaching that figure.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Honestly, Vancouver should take this Jericho proposal, and copy and paste it onto the Expo and Canada lines. Use the east and west clusters as a model for the blocks surrounding the stations, and allow the same mid-rise buildings on the rest of the corridors. The Jericho FSR is 2.5; Vancouver would no long have a housing crisis if the city had an overall FSR approaching that figure.

Jericho has a much higher density that 2.5. The gross density for the whole site is 3.46 (that's 13.6m sf on a 90 acre (3.9m sf) site. There are roads, and 20 acres of parkland. Example of comparisons would by Citygate, which has no parks, and is 4.5 FSR net density, or the entire SEFC built so far (including the Olympic Village), which has 4.2 FSR net density. Some stations on the Canada Line will see higher net densities than this (Marine Drive, Oakridge) and on the Expo Line (Joyce) and others will be lower.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Jericho has a much higher density that 2.5. The gross density for the whole site is 3.46 (that's 13.6m sf on a 90 acre (3.9m sf) site. There are roads, and 20 acres of parkland. Example of comparisons would by Citygate, which has no parks, and is 4.5 FSR net density, or the entire SEFC built so far (including the Olympic Village), which has 4.2 FSR net density. Some stations on the Canada Line will see higher net densities than this (Marine Drive, Oakridge) and on the Expo Line (Joyce) and others will be lower.

Ah, the info on page 11 is for the previous concept which was ~2.5 FSR.

My point is it shouldn't be some stations with density resembling Jericho but all of them. And I am not happy with the density at Joyce (and other stations) dropping off once you get off Joyce or Vanness. I.e., all of the SFHs bounded by Euclid, Rupert, Wellington, and Aberdeen should at least be upzoned to six floors since they are less than a 10 minute walk from the station.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Kits beach is jammed. Jericho and further towards Spanish banks is huge and while it's well utilized, there's plenty more park and beach space for people. They'll use it when they live close by!

There's already Trimble Park that was taken from the Jericho Lands.
There's also room to expand Jericho Beach into its parking lots and the Jericho Works Yard (move it to Pac Spirit).

I'm not saying the new park would be empty, (Jericho Beach is a draw for visitors in and of itself), but it does still seem the park-resident ratio is a bit high.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

There may or may not be a Blanca Station several decades from now; two stations for Point Grey is already fairly generous. Jericho Hill's not atrocious if there's a way to walk E-W and N-S instead of directly NE-SW... and it looks like there will be one.

Google Maps shows the walking distance from Jericho to Samasat to be either 15 or 20 minutes, which is well within what you'd want for a station.

Most residents in Jericho aren't walking 15 minutes.

I know the demand would suck, but so did the demand for Sperling-Burnaby Lake, Inlet Center, and Braid (sort of).
They're not really there for demand reasons, they're there because of access and redevelopment (in this case, for both Jericho residents and UBC students, who historically kept the retail district afloat as the 99B went across it.

There is/was a decent amount of buy-in from the businesses there in order to ensure the retail district remains a hub and doesn't deteriorate.

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

What is the definition of "suburban town center"?

http://www.metrovancouver.org/UrbanCentreProfiles


Point Grey and South Vancouver used to be their own suburbs, so in this situation, Jericho would be 'Point Grey's' 'Suburban T. Center' (Marpole and Kerrisdale could also work, but aren't on SkyTrain and are pretty close to Oakridge and Marine FTDA), Joyce-Collingwood for 'South/East Vancouver' and Oakridge as a town center on Cambie.
Maybe Hastings-Sunrise too, but PNE/Playland takes up a lot of room there.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Point Grey Village doesn’t have the money or clout to justify its own station, nor does it need to. The west half of Jericho to “Samasat” is roughly a kilometre; if I'm directly in front of the SkyTrain station, that’s 10-12 minutes away at most, not 15, and it’s still closer for me than Alma Village is.

[Feathered Friend]

Unlikely to be on anyone’s Bingo card – Someone wearing a Bosa Properties company jacket at the Saturday open house proclaiming that, as a 4th gen Vancouverite who has built 14 towers, they strongly oppose the Jericho Lands, & other West Point Grey developments.

https://twitter.com/City_Duo/status/1671337889530261505?s=20

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Point Grey Village doesn’t have the money or clout to justify its own station, nor does it need to. The west half of Jericho to “Samasat” is roughly a kilometre; if I'm directly in front of the SkyTrain station, that’s 10-12 minutes away at most, not 15, and it’s still closer for me than Alma Village is.

So I guess Point Grey Village gets bypassed by the transit riders (who have largely kept it afloat so far), so it struggles even more than it already is.
Hence, why it wanted a station, unlike the rest of Point Grey, which is pretty NIMBY.

Samasat also already has some towers, and a decently-sized redevelopment coming along on the former Safeway (3.6 FSR).
Also, if 'keeping the University Golf Course as a golf course' allows us to remove some land from the UEL course (if so, I would expect the tunnel portal to be inside the Golf Course lands), 1/4ths of the Golf Course is within 10 min walking of Samasat.

It's station spacing- measuring between the western side of Jericho is cheating.
Jericho Station is in the middle of the lot, and it takes 15-20 minutes uphill.
Most of the other stations on the UBC extension are 15-12 min walking distance from each other as well.
I think you're measuring downhill rather than uphill.

Also, usually stations are around a km apart from each other for subways.
SLS is an exception.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by fredinno

So I guess Point Grey Village gets bypassed by the transit riders (who have largely kept it afloat so far), so it struggles even more than it already is.
Hence, why it wanted a station, unlike the rest of Point Grey, which is pretty NIMBY.

Samasat also already has some towers, and a decently-sized redevelopment coming along on the former Safeway (3.6 FSR).
Also, if 'keeping the University Golf Course as a golf course' allows us to remove some land from the UEL course (if so, I would expect the tunnel portal to be inside the Golf Course lands), 1/4ths of the Golf Course is within 10 min walking of Samasat.

It's station spacing- measuring between the western side of Jericho is cheating.
Jericho Station is in the middle of the lot, and it takes 15-20 minutes uphill.
Most of the other stations on the UBC extension are 15-12 min walking distance from each other as well.
I think you're measuring downhill rather than uphill.

Also, usually stations are around a km apart from each other for subways.
SLS is an exception.

The 2022 Report to Vancouver Council says:

"TransLink considered three proposed station locations within the City to best serve ridership. Early work during this phase identified that two stations, Macdonald Street and Alma Street, were regionally performing. For the third regional station, between Alma and Blanca streets, station options included Jericho Lands or Sasamat Street.

Initial analysis indicated that a Jericho Station performs better than a Sasamat Station across strategic objectives. A Jericho Lands station offers opportunities for future development of xʷməθkʷə y̓ əm (Musqueam Indian Band), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish Nation), and səlilwətaɬ (Tsleil-Waututh Nation) lands and integration of a new community with rapid transit, ensuring the greatest number of people and jobs are in close proximity to the station. A station within the Jericho Lands would also allow for connections beyond the site, including to nearby West Point Grey Village, as well as improved access to beaches as a regional destination, not previously served with robust transit."

Since 2008, the lands west of Blanca Street within the University Endowment Lands that currently house the University Golf Club have been owned fee simple by xʷməθkʷəy̓ əm (Musqueam Indian Band). A covenant currently stipulates that the property must remain a golf course until at least 2083. Land use within the UEL is governed directly by the Province through the Ministry of Municipal Affairs. TransLink plans to explore if provision of future stations in this area should be delivered if and when redevelopment of these lands occurs. This could provide an opportunity for a station that could serve both the eastern portion of the University Golf Course and West Point Grey Village in the future. Until that time, City Staff will explore opportunities to better connect West Point Grey Village to the future station at Jericho through improved walking, cycling and transit connections."

So no station at Sasamat (or Samasat either), but maybe provision for one further west, in the distant future, once the Golf Course is no longer a golf course. There is no decision yet on whether the line would be underground all the way to UBC, but it is expected that it will be as far as Blanca. So there may or may not be a portal.

[Migrant_Coconut]

And let's be real, M-Line riders were unlikely to stop at Point Grey Village any more than 99 riders do now; Sasamat's ridership is almost entirely locals rather than students making a pit stop. The ex-Safeway is getting redeveloped, and the rest of the area’s sure to follow, so between the Village itself, Jericho and the few passengers at Blanca Station (whenever that gets built), there’ll be plenty of foot traffic.

Originally Posted by fredinno

- snip -

If we’re talking downhill, I could make that walk in eight minutes.
Regardless, Jericho Station’s not in the middle, it’s offset to the west near Crown Crescent – halfway between Blanca and Alma, as it should be. Half the site is closer to Sasamat, while the other half is closer to Alma, so if 1km really is the cutoff for most residents, they’ll just walk to the closer one and so PGV will still get customers. What we should really feel sorry for is Jericho Village on 4th, which isn't near any part of the SkyTrain now or in the future.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Honestly, Vancouver should take this Jericho proposal, and copy and paste it onto the Expo and Canada lines. Use the east and west clusters as a model for the blocks surrounding the stations, and allow the same mid-rise buildings on the rest of the corridors. The Jericho FSR is 2.5; Vancouver would no long have a housing crisis if the city had an overall FSR approaching that figure.

There has been a change over the years from the development allowed around Vancouver's Expo Line stations, to those allowed around its Canada Line stations, to that being allowed around its Broadway Extension stations (and beyond to UBC?), albeit at a very slow pace / long period.
As you mention, the City needs to go back and increase density around the Expo Line and Canada Line stations.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by fredinno

http://www.metrovancouver.org/UrbanCentreProfiles


Point Grey and South Vancouver used to be their own suburbs, so in this situation, Jericho would be 'Point Grey's' 'Suburban T. Center' (Marpole and Kerrisdale could also work, but aren't on SkyTrain and are pretty close to Oakridge and Marine FTDA), Joyce-Collingwood for 'South/East Vancouver' and Oakridge as a town center on Cambie.
Maybe Hastings-Sunrise too, but PNE/Playland takes up a lot of room there.

It boggles the mind that Kerrisdale is not designated as a "Municipal Town Centre". It also took a long time for Oakridge to be deisgnated as Vancouver's only "Municipal Town Centre" (which is other than the downtown core).

[Vin]

Originally Posted by officedweller

It boggles the mind that Kerrisdale is not designated as a "Municipal Town Centre". It also took a long time for Oakridge to be deisgnated as Vancouver's only "Municipal Town Centre" (which is other than the downtown core).

Backward thinking indeed. That explains why neighbourhoods that deserve the most densification have been neglected for decades, and now the contrast with other municipalities is just stark.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Vin

Backward thinking indeed. That explains why neighbourhoods that deserve the most densification have been neglected for decades, and now the contrast with other municipalities is just stark.

Despite its “neglect”, Kerrisdale would still easily be the most walkable and interesting neighbourhood in any municipality in Metro Vancouver (outside of Vancouver of course).

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by logan5

Despite its “neglect”, Kerrisdale would still easily be the most walkable and interesting neighbourhood in any municipality in Metro Vancouver (outside of Vancouver of course).

Yeah it's pretty nice. That community centre and pool needs a refresh but the neighbourhood is pretty cool. Plus the Arbutus greenway running through it now too.

[svlt]

There are far more decent retail shops and restaurants than people give it credit for, all the way from Maple to Larch along 41st.

[fredinno]

Sorry for being so late and bringing this up again. Anyways.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And let's be real, M-Line riders were unlikely to stop at Point Grey Village any more than 99 riders do now; Sasamat's ridership is almost entirely locals rather than students making a pit stop. The ex-Safeway is getting redeveloped, and the rest of the area’s sure to follow, so between the Village itself, Jericho and the few passengers at Blanca Station (whenever that gets built), there’ll be plenty of foot traffic.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/west-point-grey-village-retail-future-ubc
The 2 big factors in the decline of West Point Grey right now are the destruction of the Safeway there, and the construction of new retail at UBC stealing students.

If we’re talking downhill, I could make that walk in eight minutes.
Regardless, Jericho Station’s not in the middle, it’s offset to the west near Crown Crescent – halfway between Blanca and Alma, as it should be. Half the site is closer to Sasamat, while the other half is closer to Alma, so if 1km really is the cutoff for most residents, they’ll just walk to the closer one and so PGV will still get customers. What we should really feel sorry for is Jericho Village on 4th, which isn't near any part of the SkyTrain now or in the future.

West 4th is struggling even more too, but it's also ~5min from Alma Station.

You're missing the fact that the Jericho site on the West side is very steep.

The station location as shown seems to be at around Jericho Hill Gymnasium, so it is indeed, 16 minutes.
https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/49.267339...706m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e2?entry=ttu
The pathway shown is diagonal through the Jericho Lands, so it's not like new pathways would change this much.

The location is intended to improve access to Jericho Beach and most of the Jericho Lands at the cost of making it more difficult to access Samasat.

Originally Posted by officedweller

It boggles the mind that Kerrisdale is not designated as a "Municipal Town Centre". It also took a long time for Oakridge to be deisgnated as Vancouver's only "Municipal Town Centre" (which is other than the downtown core).

Probably because of the Canada bypassing it.
It's only 2.3km or so from Oakridge, so it'd probably only be a FTDA at most (unless you plan on merging Oakridge and Kerrisdale together, which would be nice, but difficult due to Shaughnessy in between them.)

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by fredinno

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/49.267339...706m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e2?entry=ttu
The location is intended to improve access to Jericho Beach and most of the Jericho Lands at the cost of making it more difficult to access Samasat.

You can't access Samasat, it still doesn't exist. And there won't be a station at Sasamat, that's already been decided. The station location has nothing to do with Jericho Beach - that's just a bonus. It's located in the centre of the higher density cluster of proposed development.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Changing City

You can't access Samasat, it still doesn't exist. And there won't be a station at Sasamat, that's already been decided. The station location has nothing to do with Jericho Beach - that's just a bonus. It's located in the centre of the higher density cluster of proposed development.

The intersection of Samasat and SkyTrain.
Better?


And that report says the Jericho Station performs better than Samasat, which is true.
Also in your own quote:

TransLink plans to explore if provision of future stations in this
area should be delivered if and when redevelopment of these lands occurs. This could provide an opportunity for a station that could serve both the eastern portion of the University Golf Course and West Point Grey Village in the future.

This is in the context of redeveloping the golf course lands, but still.

This implies Jericho first, then Samasat or Blanca as an infill.
I'm proposing just building it now rather than leaving an infill.

It seems the Golf Course station isn't actually a thing, and was a misinterpretation because the infill was expected to service the Golf Course lands, not that it would actually be within the lands.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by fredinno

The intersection of Samasat and SkyTrain.
Better?


And that report says the Jericho Station performs better than Samasat, which is true.
Also in the next couple paragraphs:

No it's the same typo you've been repeating for weeks.

The report says a future station could be considered once the golf course is available for the Musqueam to develop it. At the moment that's 2083, so you needn't worry about it. If there was a plan for a Sasamat or Blanca station those would be mentioned. They're not.

[Migrant_Coconut]

The new intended alignment is Alma, Jericho, possibly Blanca. It was one or the other, so if Jericho's been chosen, then Sasamat (there's a few Somersets, but no Samasat, in Vancouver) has been taken out of consideration.

Originally Posted by fredinno

- snip -

Whenever I went to PG Village I was the only student there, so YMMV. That same article also blames property taxes, a stagnant local population and residents who don’t know the area (or prefer to go elsewhere in their downtime).

Google Maps is an estimate, not hard data. And it rounds upward for walking – according to it, I shouldn’t be able to reach the Inukshuk in less than half an hour, which is bull.
The hill’s only a problem if you walk straight up it in the southwest direction; go west or south at an angle, and it’s no worse than Burrard. Seniors and kids may or may not have problems; most able-bodied adults, absolutely not.