HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #20061  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2023, 2:10 AM
casper's Avatar
casper casper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria
Posts: 12,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Made through legitimate means? Does that cover forced labour? Sweat shops?
There is a difference between legal and ethical.

The issue is we don't know. From your iPhone to dish towels it is all made in China.
     
     
  #20062  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2023, 2:12 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by casper View Post
There is a difference between legal and ethical.

The issue is we don't know. From your iPhone to dish towels it is all made in China.
Define both.
     
     
  #20063  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2023, 11:38 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 27,851
More evidence of how the Trudeau Liberals' incompetence is keeping housing unaffordable:

Great Canadian housing bailout: How real estate unaffordability is being propped up
A latticework of government demand-side policies are seemingly tailor-made to hold the line on unaffordably high housing prices
Author of the article: Tristin Hopper
Published Jun 11, 2023

For a brief, shining moment in the spring of 2022, it appeared that some semblance of sanity was returning to the most unhinged real estate market in the world.

The COVID-19 pandemic had taken Canada’s already-overheated housing prices and bid them up to meteoric heights. And now, finally, the “correction” was happening; a downward plunge that would not stop until a Canadian earning a normal wage could once again own property without the help of a windfall inheritance.

But the moment is over. The price drops slowed, the unaffordability ratchet held fast, and untold millions abandoned their last lingering hope of owning their own home. Real estate publications praised the country’s return to “normalcy” although normalcy, in this case, referred to annual double-digit spikes in value that remained wholly detached from local economic conditions....

.....As per usual, at the core of both events is a latticework of government policies seemingly tailor-made to hold the line on unaffordably high real estate prices. This is the story of the Great Canadian Housing Bailout...

....when finance minister Chrystia Freeland tabled the 2023 federal budget in March, one of the most remarkable things about it was the fact that it didn’t have a single policy designed to increase the overall housing supply....

....While prior budgets had at least paid lip service to the notion of bringing down real estate prices, the new measures in Federal Budget 2023 were focused entirely on the demand-side of the equation. The government would not be making homes more affordable, but they would be making it just a bit easier to bid up the homes that were already in place.

There was the Tax-Free First Home Savings Account, which would allow Canadians to stash away $40,000 for a downpayment, tax-free. Tax credits were increased for first-time homebuyers....

....the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, hasn’t been the first to notice that all these extended amortizations are terrible for housing affordability.

In a May letter to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance, the regulator said that one of the easiest ways for Parliament to bring down real estate prices would be to ban banks from doing this....


https://vancouversun.com/opinion/great-c...wcm/f8f4044c-c954-484c-80bf-79965ac96fa6
     
     
  #20064  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 12:11 AM
MonkeyRonin's Avatar
MonkeyRonin MonkeyRonin is offline
¥ ¥ ¥
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 10,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
More evidence of how the Trudeau Liberals' incompetence is keeping housing unaffordable:

It's not incompetence - keeping the real estate ponzi scheme going is very much intentional.
__________________
     
     
  #20065  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 1:45 AM
casper's Avatar
casper casper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria
Posts: 12,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Define both.
Legal is an activity that is consistent and not in violation of the law in the jurisdiction where the activity is performed.

Ethical is an activity that is consistent with ethical norms in a society.

Same examples....

- Dancing on the tomb of the unknown solder is legal but not ethical.

- In BC after a tenant moves out raising rent on an apartment 10x over inflation is legal but not ethical.
     
     
  #20066  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 2:06 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by casper View Post
Legal is an activity that is consistent and not in violation of the law in the jurisdiction where the activity is performed.

Ethical is an activity that is consistent with ethical norms in a society.

Same examples....

- Dancing on the tomb of the unknown solder is legal but not ethical.

- In BC after a tenant moves out raising rent on an apartment 10x over inflation is legal but not ethical.
Urinating on the tomb of the unknown solder is both illegal and not ethical, but a group of people still think that was a peaceful thing....

Oh, housing,...

Well, Everyone is raising their rental rate, so would not not be ethical to follow suit?
     
     
  #20067  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 2:18 AM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 11,962
I have said this for years, our housing crisis is an artificially created one by real estate mongols, developers, speculators, money launderers, and the politicians they bribe. This has been going on for 35 years in BC, the rest of the country is just catching up.

Since the 2008 financial crisis, 40% of the growth in Canada's GDP has been real estate. We have become addicted to it because it's easy money and requires no productivity investments. It's become Canada's economic drug of choice and like any drug, weening your self off the addiction is very difficult and painful, but over the long-term the patient will be vastly better off but therein lies the problem.............gov't don't think, little alone care, about long-term consequences.
     
     
  #20068  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 4:34 AM
LightingGuy LightingGuy is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: KW
Posts: 728
The fact that everyone now seems to think housing can only go up, means we are likely approaching the peak of the bubble. Just like people were saying about the S&P in November 2021.

It's time for a reality check:
- interest rates are the highest they've been since 2001
- Canada has the highest household debt in the G7.
- Building permits are down significantly across every sector in every province in Canada. This means that layoffs in construction and all the businesses that support construction are coming. Construction employs 17% of the workforce, so when you factor in the wholesale and manufacturing businesses that support construction, this is over 20%. At a minimum we are looking at a 2 percentage point uptick in unemployment, just from construction alone, and this is going to start very soon.
- Unemployment just ticked up for the first time in a while last month. It's just one month, and it could go down again in June, but I know a lot of business owners who say they are slow right now.
- Hours worked went down by 0.4% last month. Companies typically reduce hours first before they start layoffs, so this is not a good sign.

Yes we have a shortage of homes, but we also have a massively overleveraged housing market, with far more investors than normal markets. If unemployment rises and people need to sell their homes to avoid bankruptcy, this could trigger a mass sell-off.

I really hope I'm wrong, since I don't want to see my parents, aunts, uncles, and their friends get wiped out. As good as it feels to predict the future accurately, this is not something I want to see.
     
     
  #20069  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 4:47 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightingGuy View Post
The fact that everyone now seems to think housing can only go up, means we are likely approaching the peak of the bubble. Just like people were saying about the S&P in November 2021.

It's time for a reality check:
- interest rates are the highest they've been since 2001
- Canada has the highest household debt in the G7.
- Building permits are down significantly across every sector in every province in Canada. This means that layoffs in construction and all the businesses that support construction are coming. Construction employs 17% of the workforce, so when you factor in the wholesale and manufacturing businesses that support construction, this is over 20%. At a minimum we are looking at a 2 percentage point uptick in unemployment, just from construction alone, and this is going to start very soon.
- Unemployment just ticked up for the first time in a while last month. It's just one month, and it could go down again in June, but I know a lot of business owners who say they are slow right now.
- Hours worked went down by 0.4% last month. Companies typically reduce hours first before they start layoffs, so this is not a good sign.

Yes we have a shortage of homes, but we also have a massively overleveraged housing market, with far more investors than normal markets. If unemployment rises and people need to sell their homes to avoid bankruptcy, this could trigger a mass sell-off.

I really hope I'm wrong, since I don't want to see my parents, aunts, uncles, and their friends get wiped out. As good as it feels to predict the future accurately, this is not something I want to see.
Call me callous, but since they are likely the ones that caused this mess, then they can reap the rewards of the mess. If those rewards means that our parents, aunts ,uncles and their friends lose a large chunk of that nest egg, then that is poetic justice. One thing that annoys me is a lot of them say they are broke when they are financially better off than most of us. Maybe it is time to make their whines true.
     
     
  #20070  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 5:09 AM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 35,889
The ones who will be hurt the most if that happens won't be the people with lots of equity, it'll be the highly leveraged ones. That will skew more toward more recent and younger buyers.

Sometimes different portions of the market are affected differently as well. The low end condo market often doesn't do the same thing as well-located houses or outer suburbia for example.
     
     
  #20071  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 10:42 AM
yaletown_fella yaletown_fella is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,423
It always irritates me when politicians spout nonsense along the lines of "Everyone should be able to achieve homeownership so they can have access to only proven way to build intergenerational wealth"

They are completely ignorant to the reality that housing has only seen such exorbitant nominal gains because it's nothing more than a giant asset bubble from the last 2 decades of artificially suppressed policy. Real rates are still negative when you account for the fact that the CPI is so heavily manipulated. Indirectly robbing from savers to prop up nominal asset prices is the foundation of this shell game.
__________________
Supporter of Bill 23
     
     
  #20072  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 3:51 PM
WarrenC12's Avatar
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: East OV!
Posts: 24,630
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightingGuy View Post
I really hope I'm wrong, since I don't want to see my parents, aunts, uncles, and their friends get wiped out. As good as it feels to predict the future accurately, this is not something I want to see.
Why would they be wiped out? Presumably they have little to no mortgage left if they are older.

It's everybody who bought in the last 3-5 years that will suffer the most. Those with the biggest mortgages. Millennials will take the bullet again.
     
     
  #20073  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 3:55 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Quebec
Posts: 44,901
It’s possible that by “wiped out”, he means “property value crashes down from ~10x purchase price from twenty years ago to ~3x purchase price from twenty years ago”.

(i.e. Toronto Life Guy house crashes from ~$3M to ~$1M)
     
     
  #20074  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 3:57 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Quebec
Posts: 44,901
(It’s a matter of definition: if Elon Musk loses three-quarters of his net worth overnight, did he get “wiped out” despite STILL being a multi-billionaire post-wipe-out?)
     
     
  #20075  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 4:05 PM
LightingGuy LightingGuy is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: KW
Posts: 728
I was referring to those who are relying on the value of their home to fund their retirement. There are many whose only noteworthy investment is their house.

Last edited by LightingGuy; Jun 13, 2023 at 4:31 PM.
     
     
  #20076  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 4:27 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 35,889
I was talking to an older person about housing and intergenerational issues a while ago. Her perspective was that young people are doing really well as long as they work hard; she judged that according to the kinds of degrees the younger people had and professions they were going into. She said that it was hard to save for a house back in the 1960's too, and one of the keys to success is to make sure you get a job with a good pension. She worries a lot about her wealth and equity; she is wealthy but is concerned that she will end up with some kind of profound medical issue late in life that will require expensive round-the-clock care and costs hundreds of thousands a year. In order to plan for this, in theory, you need millions of dollars even in your 80's. She also feels she is on a fixed income (she can't work anymore) and is losing buying power to inflation, and so is economically pressured.

This view makes sense given her experience but it's out of touch with the life for younger people. The degree doesn't really mean much and a lot of white collar jobs don't give you a salary that allows you to buy much of anything right now. Some jobs have pensions but the return is generally much lower than for those who were working in the 60's and 70's.

There is also the psychology of being older, not knowing how long you will live, and watching your wealth shrink rather than grow as you spend it.
     
     
  #20077  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 4:46 PM
jonny24 jonny24 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Caledonia, often in Hamilton and Norfolk
Posts: 1,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightingGuy View Post
I was referring to those who are relying on the value of their home to fund their retirement. There are many whose only noteworthy investment is their house.
Whose fault is that?
     
     
  #20078  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 4:50 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 35,889
There's been a huge run-up in just a couple of years. So either it isn't factoring into retirement planning much yet or people decided to pull the trigger and gamble on leaving the workforce based on equity they have in an obviously very volatile asset.

Unless prices drop to 25% of what they are now we're not talking about seniors who planned to tap their home in their retirement decades ago. 50% probably just takes us back to the 2010's or maybe beginning of the 2020's in many markets.
     
     
  #20079  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 4:51 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
The ones who will be hurt the most if that happens won't be the people with lots of equity, it'll be the highly leveraged ones. That will skew more toward more recent and younger buyers.

Sometimes different portions of the market are affected differently as well. The low end condo market often doesn't do the same thing as well-located houses or outer suburbia for example.
Actually, the ones who will hurt the most are the ones who move every few years. They never seem to renew,just move. So, if their home is devalued significantly, It will hurt them.

The highly leveraged ones may feel the hit, but so long as they can keep their debts afloat, should be able to ride this out. However, what we may start seeing is people selling of their toys; ATVs, SXS, Sleds, RVs, etc to make their finances work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yaletown_fella View Post
It always irritates me when politicians spout nonsense along the lines of "Everyone should be able to achieve homeownership so they can have access to only proven way to build intergenerational wealth"

They are completely ignorant to the reality that housing has only seen such exorbitant nominal gains because it's nothing more than a giant asset bubble from the last 2 decades of artificially suppressed policy. Real rates are still negative when you account for the fact that the CPI is so heavily manipulated. Indirectly robbing from savers to prop up nominal asset prices is the foundation of this shell game.
When most people live paycheck to paycheck and then die, the only things passed on are their homes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I was talking to an older person about housing and intergenerational issues a while ago. Her perspective was that young people are doing really well as long as they work hard; she judged that according to the kinds of degrees the younger people had and professions they were going into. She said that it was hard to save for a house back in the 1960's too, and one of the keys to success is to make sure you get a job with a good pension. She worries a lot about her wealth and equity; she is wealthy but is concerned that she will end up with some kind of profound medical issue late in life that will require expensive round-the-clock care and costs hundreds of thousands a year. In order to plan for this, in theory, you need millions of dollars even in your 80's. She also feels she is on a fixed income (she can't work anymore) and is losing buying power to inflation, and so is economically pressured.

This view makes sense given her experience but it's out of touch with the life for younger people. The degree doesn't really mean much and a lot of white collar jobs don't give you a salary that allows you to buy much of anything right now. Some jobs have pensions but the return is generally much lower than for those who were working in the 60's and 70's.

There is also the psychology of being older, not knowing how long you will live, and watching your wealth shrink rather than grow as you spend it.
This highlights the problem with the largest generation being retirement age or older. They forget how hard they really had it, but only see how hard they will have it and will want the government to do something.
     
     
  #20080  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2023, 5:58 PM
Wigs's Avatar
Wigs Wigs is offline
Great White North
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 16,455
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
I have said this for years, our housing crisis is an artificially created one by real estate mongols, developers, speculators, money launderers, and the politicians they bribe. This has been going on for 35 years in BC, the rest of the country is just catching up.

Since the 2008 financial crisis, 40% of the growth in Canada's GDP has been real estate. We have become addicted to it because it's easy money and requires no productivity investments. It's become Canada's economic drug of choice and like any drug, weening your self off the addiction is very difficult and painful, but over the long-term the patient will be vastly better off but therein lies the problem.............gov't don't think, little alone care, about long-term consequences.
lio has been warning the forum of BCMLs for years. Now we also have to allegedly worry about real estate mongols

Be wary of the real estate mongols: they will try to break through any shitty walls.


(South Park reference)
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:43 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.