Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[madog222]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

OMC5 is going to be in Langley. Or at least, that's what the spring 2023 Infrastructure BC major projects brochure is saying (see: https://www.infrastructurebc.com/wp2/wp-...-Spring-2023-Major-Projects-Brochure.pdf)

If this is anything to go by, OMC5 is still under the ownership of the provincial ministry, and construction is going to begin this year, as the anticipated construction start is listed as "2023".

The SLS itself is also in this brochure (3 items on page 8) and expected construction start is listed as "2024".

It seems that the Province has infact taken over the OMC5 project.

There are also plans to build another major OMC near the Langley terminus of the Expo Line Surrey-Langley Extension. Infrastructure BC noted this spring that the provincial government will take on this Langley OMC project, with some construction potentially beginning in 2023.

The BC Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure told Daily Hive Urbanized the Langley OMC is needed to support the Expo Line extension and the broader network needs of the Expo and Millennium lines.

“The Province has been working with TransLink and municipalities to confirm a site that meets operational requirements [for the Langley OMC],” states the Ministry.

“Details are still being worked out, and there will be more to share in due course on location, timing and cost.”

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-mark-i-ii-old-cars-retirement

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by madog222

It seems that the Province has infact taken over the OMC5 project.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-mark-i-ii-old-cars-retirement

Why?

[madog222]

Any answer any of us has as to why would be a guess; my guess would be the Province is footing a majority of the bill.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by madog222

Any answer any of us has as to why would be a guess; my guess would be the Province is footing a majority of the bill.

And presumably because they're building the Surrey Langley SkyTrain project, just as they are the Broadway Subway Project.

[madog222]

Yeah, really it should have been part of the main SLS project to begin with (as with the Evergreen Extension) but that would have delayed the project further as even now they still don't have a location picked.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

To me it looks like the overpass is more meant to support a future redevelopment of that massive complex with the Save-On Foods, and the additional station house looks like it will have some facilities (3 doors... public washrooms?). The overpass may connect directly with the westbound/inbound platform rather than any mezzanine, and I presume a separate set of stairs leading down to the fare paid zone would facilitate access to/from the eastbound platform.

Functionally this is not that different from how Commercial-Broadway has an overpass over Broadway to facilitate connections to Millennium Line and 99 B-Line. Even before any redevelopment starts, I expect there will be considerable utility in handling the northbound to westbound transfer volume from connecting bus routes.

A response to an old post, but now that I think about it more, the overpass might instead support a potential future-park-and-ride.

Most of the outer suburbs with SkyTrain have dedicated park-and-rides that covers their rough neighborhood.


If they make the parking lot in front of the Save-on a parkade, they could easily make a decently sized park and ride for people from the Fleetwood area who don't want to wait for the bus (which isn't that great out there even with service improvements.)
This would actually justify the cost of constructing a dedicated connection over just some strip mall redevelopment (and could later be redeveloped once it's no longer necessary.)


The Cascades Casino Parking will likely be partitioned off to serve as a park-and-ride in Langley (the parkade is rarely full), so that covers the Langley/Clayton area.

[jlove390]

Surrey-Langley Skytrain First Look video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx5GBKjiw2c

[Vantage]

Do you think they'll be short turning trains somewhere along the Expo Line once this opens? Not every train goes all the way to Langley Centre/Central/203 St (whatever they end up naming it) and instead short turns back to Waterfront at New West or King George.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Vantage

Do you think they'll be short turning trains somewhere along the Expo Line once this opens? Not every train goes all the way to Langley Centre/Central/203 St (whatever they end up naming it) and instead short turns back to Waterfront at New West or King George.

I believe the SLS business case document mentioned that 50% of trains leaving Waterfront would head towards Langley and 50% would head towards Arbutus (mimicking the original Millennium Line)

[mcj]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I believe the SLS business case document mentioned that 50% of trains leaving Waterfront would head towards Langley and 50% would head towards Arbutus (mimicking the original Millennium Line)

Appendix D of the Business Case, Figure 4-2 and Figure 4-3 show that there will be 3 termini. In 2028 that will be Production Way, 140th Street, and 203rd Street. In 2035 Production Way will be lengthened to Arbutus during peak periods. I would imagine this has to do with the delivery schedule of the Mk V trains, though these are just assumptions made for the business case and could change once implemented.

[Migrant_Coconut]

IDK why they keep trying to resurrect the old M-Line. No matter how few people are headed to Coquitlam, obviously even fewer want to go the long way around to Broadway.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

IDK why they keep trying to resurrect the old M-Line. No matter how few people are headed to Coquitlam, obviously even fewer want to go the long way around to Broadway.

Living in New West it would make going to Brentwood more convenient. Though I've only done that trip a handful of times.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by mcj

Living in New West it would make going to Brentwood more convenient. Though I've only done that trip a handful of times.

I guess we'll see a reroute once the Willingdon Line opens...?

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

IDK why they keep trying to resurrect the old M-Line. No matter how few people are headed to Coquitlam, obviously even fewer want to go the long way around to Broadway.

Having trains turnaround in the middle of another line leads to a hard limit of frequency for either line. Also, Millennium Line from Arbutus through Burnaby will have a lot higher demand than through the Tri-Cities so interlining makes a lot of sense.

[SpongeG]

I had thought Willowbrook was the terminus station in Langley, after seeing that video I was surprised to see it will go all the way into downtown Langley.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by madog222

Having trains turnaround in the middle of another line leads to a hard limit of frequency for either line. Also, Millennium Line from Arbutus through Burnaby will have a lot higher demand than through the Tri-Cities so interlining makes a lot of sense.

Thanks. Forgot the Production Way branch isn't a separate track.

Still, the end goal should be to make that entire segment operate independently of one line or the other (preferably both at once); right now it's a third wheel that just overcomplicates whichever line it gets dumped on.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by mcj

Appendix D of the Business Case, Figure 4-2 and Figure 4-3 show that there will be 3 termini. In 2028 that will be Production Way, 140th Street, and 203rd Street.

It makes sense to have all the Surrey trains go to 140th as that's where the outpatient clinic and the RCMP headquarters are. I had pondered if they would travel as far as Fleetwood before turning around - maybe at some point in the future.

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I had thought Willowbrook was the terminus station in Langley, after seeing that video I was surprised to see it will go all the way into downtown Langley.

It was always planned to end in downtown Langley. Willowbrook is right on the Surrey / Langley border. I'm surprised they're only doing three bus loops next to stations at 166th, Willowbrook and downtown Langley. I was hoping they'd have something like a mini exchange similar to Burquitlam at at least half of the stations but ... they're not.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Thanks. Forgot the Production Way branch isn't a separate track.

Still, the end goal should be to make that entire segment operate independently of one line or the other (preferably both at once); right now it's a third wheel that just overcomplicates whichever line it gets dumped on.

There are 4 points to terminate the existing lines, Waterfront, Larfarge Lake, King George ( 103St in Langley eventually), VCC-Clark (Arbutus eventually)

Way back when, you have to remember that the Millenium Line was supposed to be the entire UBC to Coquitlam line. That is what it always was supposed to be. Likewise the Expo Line was always supposed to go to Langley City.

What has really happened is that there was a design oversight in the assumption that Loughheed Town Center would be a hub, rather than Production Way. Thus it inconveniences passengers to have to get off at Lougheed, only to go one stop to get to Production Way to transfer yet again to the Gondola/Bus. What would have made "more sense" would have been to make Lougheed the transfer point to the University and put the Gondola there to avoid making changes to the tracks. But I guess we will live with this until there is a capacity crunch which isn't foreseeable right now.

And the only way to really fix that is to rebuild the track between Lake City Way, Production Way and Lougheed to have 4 tracks. Otherwise you're basically saying Sapperton and Braid shouldn't exist, and everyone coming from Surrey should have to travel all the way to Commercial to transfer to the Millennium Line and then travel all the way back.

It's an automated system, they can tweak it enough that they can make do with the existing track setup. So if this ultimately means all trains do a full network circuit, then that just makes sense to.

So if 50% head to Langley and 50% head to Arbutus, then the other 50% on the Millennium Line has to be Arbutus to Coquitlam, and 50% can be Surrey to Langley only. It'll all depend on rolling stock and capacity. Not everyone is going to want to do a full circuit, but it makes more logical sense to send rolling stock on one side of the river further down to Langley than to send it back over the river and then have to wait at the notoriously mechanical-failure prone, cramped, Columbia Station.


You have to get out of the mindset that these are two, three, four, even five different systems. They are just one system, and they can be reconfigured just by changing the fixed signage at stations. No need to re-train staff to learn new routes or signaling changes. The computer does all of that.

[nname]

Originally Posted by mcj

Appendix D of the Business Case, Figure 4-2 and Figure 4-3 show that there will be 3 termini. In 2028 that will be Production Way, 140th Street, and 203rd Street. In 2035 Production Way will be lengthened to Arbutus during peak periods. I would imagine this has to do with the delivery schedule of the Mk V trains, though these are just assumptions made for the business case and could change once implemented.

By 2028, looks like all M-Line trains will be 4-cars. This is probably already too much capacity to the Tri-cities during peak hours, but the capacity will be needed west of Brentwood. So by 2035 they either have to increase the frequency further (and have even more excess capacity east of Lougheed), or introducing short-turn trains to Holdom or Lougheed... or probably easier just to through run with the Expo train that terminates at Production.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Kisai

... You have to get out of the mindset that these are two, three, four, even five different systems. They are just one system, and they can be reconfigured just by changing the fixed signage at stations. No need to re-train staff to learn new routes or signaling changes. The computer does all of that.

That "one system" is currently hampering maximum frequency east of the PW-Columbia chokepoint, not to mention increasing the amount of switch usage; as you just pointed out, Columbia's unreliable, so maybe having 50% of Arbutus' trains and 100% of Surrey's dependent on it working as normal isn't the best idea long-term (especially once Surrey's population starts outgrowing Vancouver's), and maybe the SkyTrain could be decentralized into several smaller systems for regular operations. "One universal depot for everything" smells like Condonland LRT logic.