Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by KincLosddy

The folks in rural Langley and the valley (there is over a 300,000 of us now) are well aware that you need demand to justify transit. You also have to implement well-designed transit to attract the people. If the system that exists is inherently flawed and offering little in the ways of convenience or advantage, the demand will never grow rapidly.

The FVX is a bus service depending on a highway that is chronically congested. Over 320,000 people live in the Fraser Valley east of Langley City. None of us can subsist WITHOUT a car. So tell me the inherent advantage to using the FVX instead of using our own vehicles if the end result is being stuck in the exact same congestion? We are at the mercy of transit that may not reliably get us to and from Metro Vancouver, not to mention if such a service would be possibly needed to commute.

Almost a third of a million people out here who are trapped in cars with outdated highways and disastrous transit who are told that we just don't have the need. Come out to Abbotsford, live here for a week, try and get around. Do that then talk about justification of transit planning and projects.

Example: I live in the east side of Abbotsford. In the urban area. There is a Value Village 7km from my house as the crow flies. If I want to get there by transit, its about a 2 hour roundtrip, including walking. Also I would have to transfer to a different bus for the last couple of km.

Two bus transfers, 2 hours. That to accomplish what can be driven in less than 30 minutes. People wonder why we are so car dependent in the valley. It's almost faster to walk across the city.

Now I am not saying we need to spend XX billions of dollars on rapid transit right now to the Valley cities. What I am saying is that we need to start considering realistic and less road-dependent plans for the future for all communities.

Yeah.

The City of Abbotsford also wants improved transit services in its documents.
As I've pointed out before, the real main problem is that no one wants to pay for increased services.

The Provincial government probably has to force them to do it in this case, unfortunately.
The NDP had an opportunity to do so with the Hwy 1 expansion in Abbostford, but...

[nname]

Originally Posted by fredinno

They just choose to be winding feeder lines instead of following the existing road grid to go Braid/Burquitlam <> Coquitlam Central/Inlet Central/Moody Central.
I get that Gatensbury and Thermal are steep and would make the service more expensive due to extra wear-and-tear, but still.

They did planned to run a bus on Thermal (153), but it was deemed too steep even for a community shuttle, so the 153 uses Mariner instead.

Gatensbury is even more steep than Thermal, so a bus route there was never considered.

So E/W there are 151, 157, and 152. 152 will be straightened when there are resource for two additional routes to handle the Rochester and Hickey/Chilko detours. N/S there aren't much choices, as every bus route will need to turn and go to Burquitlam, or to Coquitlam Central via Mariner. Going straight down to Port Moody is a no-go.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by nname

They did planned to run a bus on Thermal (153), but it was deemed too steep even for a community shuttle, so the 153 uses Mariner instead.

Gatensbury is even more steep than Thermal, so a bus route there was never considered.

So E/W there are 151, 157, and 152. 152 will be straightened when there are resource for two additional routes to handle the Rochester and Hickey/Chilko detours. N/S there aren't much choices, as every bus route will need to turn and go to Burquitlam, or to Coquitlam Central via Mariner. Going straight down to Port Moody is a no-go.

OK, thanks. Do you have a source for that, though?

[Tvisforme]

The North Shore has these issues as well. North-south works pretty well but east-west travel can be problematic, so you end up with good cross-town connections below the highway and weaker connections above.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by fredinno

OK, thanks. Do you have a source for that, though?

Both roads have signage prohibiting truck traffic, if that helps answer your question.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Well Abbotsford is relatively flat overall, so it's fairly safe to conclude that it could've had a grid, and instead repeatedly chose not to. I suspect local bus service would be somewhat more efficient if (let's say) Trethewey and Bevan were one big, continuous road - ditto McCallum, or Maclure and Sumas.

[nname]

Originally Posted by fredinno

OK, thanks. Do you have a source for that, though?

The original plan you can just check out the NE Sector ATP (page 7). Not that it look better, but at least the 2 east-west trunk routes are straight and direct, and the 153 shows as a main route going north-south.

As to why 153 goes down Mariner instead of Thermal, it's probably on some news site or local newspaper that no longer available online...

[GMD]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Making a grid on a mountain isn't easy.

Having a station on David Ave and having a 'big' bus line going east-west as the 'spine' of North Coquitlam would be nice, but that first requires David Ave being fully extended across Burke and Annmore/Ioco... which isn't happening.

On the contrary, the problem is just that the Evergreen line stops before making it up the hill to David Ave. David Ave itself extends as far East/West as you need it to, there is pretty much nothing worth running a bus to, either to the East or West of the ends of David Ave. And also, there wouldn't be much anchoring those East/West ends, you might want the line to run down Heritage Mountain on the Western end, at least. And also that Coquitlam has limited commercial development along David Ave. making sure everyone has to go down into the congested Town Centre area for shopping.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by GMD

On the contrary, the problem is just that the Evergreen line stops before making it up the hill to David Ave. David Ave itself extends as far East/West as you need it to, there is pretty much nothing worth running a bus to, either to the East or West of the ends of David Ave. And also, there wouldn't be much anchoring those East/West ends, you might want the line to run down Heritage Mountain on the Western end, at least. And also that Coquitlam has limited commercial development along David Ave. making sure everyone has to go down into the congested Town Centre area for shopping.

Yes, that's the point I was trying to make with Evergreen not extending to David Ave.

Most of the commercial area there is in North Coquitlam is on David Ave as well- and the primary commercial center there is supposed to be at Paddington Creek- it just hasn't been built yet.

[officedweller]

Second station house across 152nd Ave for this station including an overpass.
That suggests to me that the station will be raised to include a mezzanine.

Potential expanded design for future 152 Street Station on Surrey-Langley SkyTrain
includes second entrance and overpass


https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-9014-152-street-station-entrance-overpass




https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-9014-152-street-station-entrance-overpass


https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-9014-152-street-station-entrance-overpass


https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-9014-152-street-station-entrance-overpass

OLD rendering.


https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-9014-152-street-station-entrance-overpass

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Second station house across 152nd Ave for this station including an overpass.
That suggests to me that the station will be raised to include a mezzanine.

Potential expanded design for future 152 Street Station on Surrey-Langley SkyTrain
includes second entrance and overpass


https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-9014-152-street-station-entrance-overpass




https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-9014-152-street-station-entrance-overpass


https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-9014-152-street-station-entrance-overpass


https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-9014-152-street-station-entrance-overpass

OLD rendering.


https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-9014-152-street-station-entrance-overpass

I'm not sure this is even necessary given demand.

[madog222]

Quoting images from the post above yours is not really necessary.

[xd_1771]

To me it looks like the overpass is more meant to support a future redevelopment of that massive complex with the Save-On Foods, and the additional station house looks like it will have some facilities (3 doors... public washrooms?). The overpass may connect directly with the westbound/inbound platform rather than any mezzanine, and I presume a separate set of stairs leading down to the fare paid zone would facilitate access to/from the eastbound platform.

Functionally this is not that different from how Commercial-Broadway has an overpass over Broadway to facilitate connections to Millennium Line and 99 B-Line. Even before any redevelopment starts, I expect there will be considerable utility in handling the northbound to westbound transfer volume from connecting bus routes.

[Migrant_Coconut]

That'd line up with the land use plan and the renders; for all intents and purposes, Surrey seems intent on making Fleetwood into a major transit hub.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

...
The overpass may connect directly with the westbound/inbound platform rather than any mezzanine, and I presume a separate set of stairs leading down to the fare paid zone would facilitate access to/from the eastbound platform.

I was wondering that too - like the Aberdeen overpass to the Aberdeen Mall extension.
Not sure if the drawings show just stairs or escalator(s) and stairs.
If just stairs, it's a pretty low volume entrance.

If there is a mezzanine planned, I was thinking it could be a taller version of the 160th St. Station which shows a mezzanine:


https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/transp...-langley-skytrain-information-boards.pdf

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

for all intents and purposes, Surrey seems intent on making Fleetwood into a major transit hub.

Makes sense. 152nd Street is really the only major North-South street that this line will directly intersect and besides King George Blvd, 152nd street is the only street in Surrey that bisects almost the entire city on that North-South axis (I guess you could also count 176th Street but that's more of a road/stroad than a street). The 375 currently doesn't really have the ridership to justify a rapidbus replacement, however it's in the top half of bus routes region wide in the 2022 TSPR so it could justifiably receive more frequent service considering it's only once every 30 mins currently.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by mcj

Makes sense. 152nd Street is really the only major North-South street that this line will directly intersect and besides King George Blvd, 152nd street is the only street in Surrey that bisects almost the entire city on that North-South axis (I guess you could also count 176th Street but that's more of a road/stroad than a street).

That positions Fleetwood as similar to Metrotown: located on one of the only north-south streets that crosses the entire city and on a diagonal street that quickly gets you downtown.

[GMasterAres]

Car traffic at the intersection of 152nd and Fraser Highway is ridiculous on the best day with virtually no pedestrians. Add an increase in pedestrians crossing at the cross walk and it will get doubly worse.

Given the render has bus stops on the other side there (Save-On), they are clearly expecting a big increase in connections over time and the overpass makes sense given that and potential future transit changes N/S along 152nd.

If you go hang out around that area during the day any day of the week even weekend, I think it becomes pretty clear that specific intersection is a big bottle neck for traffic on both roads already with low amounts of pedestrians.

[Diegotheartist1]

as neat as it sounds, I doubt it would be necessary, unless the concourse was above street level (which would mean the elevation between the surface and the guideway would have to be taller)

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

That positions Fleetwood as similar to Metrotown: located on one of the only north-south streets that crosses the entire city and on a diagonal street that quickly gets you downtown.

Even though 152 is part of the R-bus network, it's kind of pointless and this isn't the best comparison.

152 St is on the very edge of the Western 'blob' of developed Surrey beyond Fleetwood, so demand for any R-bus would be low.