Broadway Subway - Millennium Line Extension to Arbutus | U/C

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Longer platforms at some stations are wasted unless all the other stations on the line are extended - and given the cost of doing that it may be a better cost/benefit case to just build a parallel relief line. One of the advantages of a new line (apart from the beneficial network effects) is you can build all the stations with a longer platform (as long as you don't insist on a branching line like all of the compatible Skytrain extensions have been).

that's true; my concern though is that these are all underground stations, and they do not have any provisions for lengthening. it would be easier to extend the ones that are above ground/at grade.

i would hate to see us get to the point where. "well we can have 100m platforms... but now we cant because of the broadway subway"

thats my biggest concern. underground works after the fact are harder then than at grade/above ground.

after the UBC extension, Langley Extension, SFU gondola, i dont even see us needing another line until probably 2050.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

that's true; my concern though is that these are all underground stations, and they do not have any provisions for lengthening. it would be easier to extend the ones that are above ground/at grade.

i would hate to see us get to the point where. "well we can have 100m platforms... but now we cant because of the broadway subway"

thats my biggest concern. underground works after the fact are harder then than at grade/above ground.

after the UBC extension, Langley Extension, SFU gondola, i dont even see us needing another line until probably 2050.

Transport 2050 plan has North Shore - Metrotown, 41/49th UBC -Metrotown, and King George Blvd lines in that "may require" grade separation (that is, potentially Skytrain).

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by madog222

Transport 2050 plan has North Shore - Metrotown, 41/49th UBC -Metrotown, and King George Blvd lines in that "may require" grade separation (that is, potentially Skytrain).

i see those more of "wants," not "needs."

we need SkyTrain to UBC, SkyTrain to Langley, the SFU gondola. i dont foresee us needing those by 2050.

sure they may be nice to have, but i am skeptical they'll actually be done and needed. it'll be 2028 by the time the Langley extension is done, do you really see those projects happening in the following 20yrs?

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

that's true; my concern though is that these are all underground stations, and they do not have any provisions for lengthening. it would be easier to extend the ones that are above ground/at grade.

i would hate to see us get to the point where. "well we can have 100m platforms... but now we cant because of the broadway subway"

thats my biggest concern. underground works after the fact are harder then than at grade/above ground.

after the UBC extension, Langley Extension, SFU gondola, i dont even see us needing another line until probably 2050.

If Broadway gets congested, Expo and Canada will also be congested by that point.

Growth models pre-pandemic showed us reaching the 35,000 pphpd (rough maximum with MKV trains) by the 2060s.



And we need other lines too.
KGB/104th is the most important bus corridor SOF (especially since it can be made to connect with the FVX/555).
SkyTrain to Maple Ridge would ease congestion to and from the 'industrial reserves' in East Maple Ridge as well as on Hwy 7 in general.
North Shore has been a long dream of most people here (as well as NS politicians.)
Hastings is also very highly used, and has/will have massive congestion problems even with bus lanes.
North Delta/Newton is the most-used bus corridor SOF.
etc.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i see those more of "wants," not "needs."

we need SkyTrain to UBC, SkyTrain to Langley, the SFU gondola. i dont foresee us needing those by 2050.

sure they may be nice to have, but i am skeptical they'll actually be done and needed. it'll be 2028 by the time the Langley extension is done, do you really see those projects happening in the following 20yrs?

To make a very rough, and admittedly probably overly optimistic, prediction based on public statements and plans and if they can get a funding model sorted out; I see:

-BMG (SFU gondola) in 2027/28
-SLS in 2028 [committed]
-North Shore - Metrotown w/ BRT on a new rail-capable crossing in 2028-2030
-UBCx Skytrain in 2032-2034
-upgrade North Shore - Metrotown to Skytrain 2035-2045
-KGB and 41/49th Skytrain studied and potentially built in 2040s
-Port Coquitlam extension somewhere in there.
-other BRT lines implemented throughout

[Hooknose]

Originally Posted by madog222

To make a very rough, and admittedly probably overly optimistic, prediction based on public statements and plans and if they can get a funding model sorted out; I see:

-BMG (SFU gondola) in 2027/28
-SLS in 2028 [committed]
-North Shore - Metrotown w/ BRT on a new rail-capable crossing in 2028-2030
-UBCx Skytrain in 2032-2034
-upgrade North Shore - Metrotown to Skytrain 2035-2045
-KGB and 41/49th Skytrain studied and potentially built in 2040s
-Port Coquitlam extension somewhere in there.
-other BRT lines implemented throughout

The Poco extension is the one of the most interest. People may not be aware of it but the vast majority of undeveloped land, outside the ALR is in Maple Ridge and Mission.

Poco is just the first step to a vault across the Pitt River and access to all that land.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Hooknose

The Poco extension is the one of the most interest. People may not be aware of it but the vast majority of undeveloped land, outside the ALR is in Maple Ridge and Mission.

Poco is just the first step to a vault across the Pitt River and access to all that land.

Unless this whole property development department really takes off for Translink and they start developing stations in the middle of fields to build around a la China/Japan. Otherwise it doesn't really matter that there's all that land if it's just filled in with SFHs and curved streets that are inefficient for feeder bus lines. And that's ignoring the fact that the WCE is struggling to even reach 50% of pre-pandemic ridership.

It would be worth leaving the PoCo extension in a position to expand in the distant future, but there's no way it makes sense over a dozen other projects in the already developed areas of Metro Vancouver.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by mcj

Unless this whole property development department really takes off for Translink and they start developing stations in the middle of fields to build around a la China/Japan. Otherwise it doesn't really matter that there's all that land if it's just filled in with SFHs and curved streets that are inefficient for feeder bus lines. And that's ignoring the fact that the WCE is struggling to even reach 50% of pre-pandemic ridership.

It would be worth leaving the PoCo extension in a position to expand in the distant future, but there's no way it makes sense over a dozen other projects in the already developed areas of Metro Vancouver.

There's no fast way to get across Pitt Meadows/Port Coquitlam/Maple Ridge right now.

[Hooknose]

Originally Posted by fredinno

There's no fast way to get across Pitt Meadows/Port Coquitlam/Maple Ridge right now.

Do you remember how the Skytrain went to New West first, then a one station extension to Columbia ..

and then a skytrain bridge to Scott road and then finally, up the hill to Surrey central

Now it is going to Langley.

So .. bring the skytrain to Poco. Then vault the Pitt River with a skytrain bridge and open up a bus loop underneath it. And then .. eastwards, ever eastwards

[mcj]

Originally Posted by fredinno

There's no fast way to get across Pitt Meadows/Port Coquitlam/Maple Ridge right now.

Yeah there's also no "fast" way to get across many other parts of the region too that have more people currently. Also the WCE is our fastest mode of transit by average speed, and that's the only part of the region that has that.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by mcj

Yeah there's also no "fast" way to get across many other parts of the region too that have more people currently. Also the WCE is our fastest mode of transit by average speed, and that's the only part of the region that has that.

If we wanna go faster, then something like an express service would be better, like instead of multiple stops per city, have a small handful per city, maybe at major exchanges, then they can board a local train to continue to their final destination. Let's say you're going from Waterfront to Langley Centre, it could be Waterfront-Commercial/Broadway-Metrotown-Columbia-Surrey Central-Langley.

Though this is fantasy territory and would require a time machine to go back to the planning committee for the skytrain and tell them that their system will grow incredibly large and that they need to design it for the future with quad tracks

[nname]

Originally Posted by mcj

Yeah there's also no "fast" way to get across many other parts of the region too that have more people currently. Also the WCE is our fastest mode of transit by average speed, and that's the only part of the region that has that.

And R3 is actually the only RapidBus in the region that's truly "rapid", by having faster average speed than the Canada Line

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

that's true; my concern though is that these are all underground stations, and they do not have any provisions for lengthening. it would be easier to extend the ones that are above ground/at grade.

i would hate to see us get to the point where. "well we can have 100m platforms... but now we cant because of the broadway subway"

thats my biggest concern. underground works after the fact are harder then than at grade/above ground.

after the UBC extension, Langley Extension, SFU gondola, i dont even see us needing another line until probably 2050.

Current 4-car Mk4s are 68.1 m long. I'm pretty sure you could order 5-car trains and have all doors open on the platform. By my (crude) estimation, the centre cars are about 16m long... so about 84m long trains and although I haven't measured it precisely, looks to be between 3.5–4m before you get to the first door, so a 5-car train would JUST squeeze into the Millennium Line stations and at busier underground stations, you'd have a bit of extra room to handle platform crowds.



Make the seating side-searing and you also would increase capacity considerably.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Current 4-car Mk4s are 68.1 m long. I'm pretty sure you could order 5-car trains and have all doors open on the platform. By my (crude) estimation, the centre cars are about 16m long... so about 84m long trains and although I haven't measured it precisely, looks to be between 3.5–4m before you get to the first door, so a 5-car train would JUST squeeze into the Millennium Line stations and at busier underground stations, you'd have a bit of extra room to handle platform crowds.

That's exactly what is happening, Translink currently has 47 5-car trains (235 cars) on order with the first test train arriving this year. They have purchase options for 370 more cars through 2030.

This is why Broadway Subway and Surrey Langley are being built with 82.5m platforms, not 80m. Existing stations are currently being modified to work with the new 5-car trains, this mainly involves relocating the emergency exits and some equipment at the end of the platforms. https://www.translink.ca/plans-and-proje...ojects/station-access-and-safety-project

The Mark III train centre cars are 16.7m long so the 5-cars trains should be 84.8m total length.

[dpogue]

After 2 weeks of not much in the way of visible progress, there's finally another girder section up behind the QLT building. They're getting pretty close to connecting with the existing guideway at the VCC-Clark tail.

Photos by me, today.

[dleung]

Am I the only one who thinks the Mark II's were peak skytrain design?



Especially the interior, with the pot lights casting a cozier feel than the fluorescent-looking strips that they used from Canada Line onward. The exterior end geometry was simple, rational and robust, whereas the newer models have unnecessarily-fussy angles that don't transition to the rest of the train body. Obviously I prefer the new windows, but that's just technology not design

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by dpogue

After 2 weeks of not much in the way of visible progress, there's finally another girder section up behind the QLT building. They're getting pretty close to connecting with the existing guideway at the VCC-Clark tail.

This is so great to see. I wish there would be ongoing Skytrain expansion always ongoing somewhere. Next few years are definitely good times but we need brand new lines. Yes, in plural.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by Klazu

This is so great to see. I wish there would be ongoing Skytrain expansion always ongoing somewhere. Next few years are definitely good times but we need brand new lines. Yes, in plural.

Agreed. Over time the rhythm of SkyTrain expansion has been basically one project on the go every five year cycle. Of that cycle, only about 2-3 years involve visible construction. The first year and a half or so after a project is approved and funded is all preparatory work (e.g. contract tendering, architectural and engineering work, geotech drilling, utility relocation, site acquisition and clearance, etc). After the 2-3 years of construction there's about a year of finishing work and commissioning. The net result is that it can seem like a long stretch of time between visible construction on one project ending and the next project beginning, even if the schedules of the two projects abut or even slightly overlap.

In an ideal world, I would like to see the rhythm of SkyTrain expansion increase through a formalization of each decade seeing two major system expansions (e.g. wholly new lines and/or substantive extensions like the Langley Line, Broadway Subway, or Evergreen Line), plus one incremental expansion of an existing line (e.g. incrementally extending the Expo Line east from Waterfront Stn beginning with a new elevated station over the railyard serving Gastown at the foot Carrall Street, or branching and incrementally expanding the Evergreen Line towards Pitt Meadows and Maple Ridge beginning with a spur line from Coquitlam Central to downtown Port Coquitlam), or a non-SkyTrain rapid transit project like the Burnaby Mountain Gondola or locally-serving streetcar/light rail line that would be expanded over time.

Formalizing such a rhythm of system growth (two major projects and a 'minor' project each decade) would establish order to budgetary planning and make everything less ad hoc. It would also enable more logical phasing, especially when a major project can be designed with follow-on minor expansions to follow and/or infill stations like Capstan if the local municipality enables their creation through planning policy.

But this is transit fantasy stuff, so I'll leave it there.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by dleung

Am I the only one who thinks the Mark II's were peak skytrain design?

Those are the Mark 2.5s, the original Mark II's are the worst design imo. I agree with you aesthetically, but I think the Mark 3s feel better thanks to the more spacious interior, and the Mark 5s will improve upon that. Also as a taller than average person the Mark 2.5s are more accommodating with the centerline hand bar that's as tight to the ceiling as it can be, the original Mark 2s are so squishy in comparison for taller people.

[cganuelas1995]

Would be nice for the Mark 6 to be single car type instead of having end cars and middle cars. Would probably make the manufacturing process a bit faster and cheaper