Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Maintenance costs for us bank stadium are 28 million a year as per cbs Minneapolis wcco station. Vikings currently only cover 16 million a year so they will have to come up with a plan on it soon. That's why a fargodome or alerts center dome is easier to maintain.

That's the problem. Calgary can't afford the deluxe dome that would entice fans. Maybe it can afford the economy model dome that would probably repel fans. So why not just go with a nice outdoor stadium in that case?

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

CFL could fix this by starting the in April or early may instead of waiting until hell freezes over the start the playoffs. I think its absolutely ridiculous they haven't made this change. But then again its the CFL and they aren't known for doing things that make sense. Who in gods name wants to go sit on a piece of plastic or metal bench in October and November in Canada? you wouldn't catch me dead at a Elks game post September.

I know most of you in here are the 55+ crowd but i'm telling you the CFL has to do something to attract a younger audience or they will be done in the next 20 years. I'm 36 and I've just lost interest at one point i was driving 3 hours each way to catch games and watched religiously on TV, The games are okay but the experience is awful, The product has over time become the werthers originals of the sports world. It's whole bland "look at our history, we have been around so long" marketing ploy is just washed up. The brass at the CFL have completely lost touch with the new generation and they rely so much on the traditional CFL fans who are 20 years away from non existence. The league can't survive off the consistency of the west forever even the prairie teams are declining, If sask isnt selling out grey cups were in trouble here.

And before you come at me with "the league is fine the way it is, leave it alone I remember back in 1993 when the yada yada yada..." You're the last ones the league should be worried about. I'm not trolling here at all. I truly believe its time for the CFL to evolve. The League isn't cool anymore the MLS is slaughtering it with the same 2nd level talent.

4.....down...football

XFL Merger

Ban cowbells and horns...because they sound stupid.

You gotta be joking XFL games are averaging between 6000 and 11000 fans a game outside St Louis ( whom only draw well to spite the NFL ala the Baltimore stallions in the mid 90s) their television ratings have been cratering most of this season and are only around 600k viewers in a market 9 times larger than Canada as the cfl draws around 450 to 500 k. Also after this off-season cfl has most stable and well financed owners in its history with most teams now owned by billionaires or well run and financed community owned clubs.

[craner]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Maintenance costs for us bank stadium are 28 million a year as per cbs Minneapolis wcco station. Vikings currently only cover 16 million a year so they will have to come up with a plan on it soon. That's why a fargodome or alerts center dome is easier to maintain.

Holy shit!
Forget that as an option for Calgary then, even a 30k version.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Football stadiums are terrible investments. Domed ones doubly so.

As a once in a couple generations gift to a league that is pretty marginal profit-wise (CFL), maybe a new open air stadium is fine. It sort of can be justified as a civic amenity. I'm not really big on gridiron football, so I'm pretty meh on the whole scheme.

It stings more to do this for the richest league in the world I imagine, but it seems unlikely we'll have to worry about that here.

A domed stadium in a city of less than several million people would be a white elephant. The one that even comes close to being used effectively and offering a decent value for money is SkyDome, and that was a fiasco. The others are travesties, value-wise.

I agree. A stadium that's only used 9 to 35 games per year is a bad investment. A bare-bones open air stadium of $100-$150 millions might be worth it for CFL/CPL/MLS stadiums. Call it local pride, economic development or whatever, but adding a dome or retractable roof can get that price tag to $500 million+.

Originally Posted by elly63

This is U.S. Bank Stadium in Minneapolis, the example I think is most appropriate for Canada. Via Wikipedia here is some relevant info.

While the Vikings' owners wanted an outdoor stadium, the state and local governments would only provide funding for an indoor stadium capable of hosting major events like the Super Bowl and the Final Four. A retractable roof was the trend in 2010s football stadiums. However, retractable roof facilities are not typically designed for the roof to be opened and closed in sub-freezing conditions. When built in temperate climates, retractable roofs are generally kept closed throughout the winter months, both to reduce the stress on the roof and its components and also to reduce or eliminate the need to winterize the stadium's interior. In contrast, to be of any competitive on-field advantage to the Vikings, a retractable roof facility would have needed to be designed to operate in a Minnesotan winter so as to allow the Vikings to play a home game outdoors during the NFL playoffs. Eventually, this design was deemed too expensive.

Architecture firm HKS, Inc. decided to go for a lightweight translucent roof and glazed entrances with giant pivoting doors, aiming to get as much natural light from the outside as possible. The roof is made up of 60% Ethylene tetrafluoroethylene (ETFE), a fluorine-based clear plastic. ETFE's low R-factor and the roof's slanted design, inspired by Nordic vernacular architecture, allows the stadium to endure heavy snow loads. Snow accumulates in areas that are more safely and easily accessible, and also moves down the slanted roof into a heated gutter, the water from which drains to the nearby Mississippi River.

The translucent roof and large wall panels also give fans a view of downtown Minneapolis. The glass operable wall panels allow the stadium to experience some of the outdoor elements while providing protection from the snow, rain, and the cold winter weather.

An older, simpler model of this can be seen at the Forsyth Barr Stadium in Dunedin, New Zealand

Wow. Vikings wanted a more basic open air stadium, and the City and State went "NO, we will build you a ridiculously expensive domed stadium!"

[J.OT13]

On the Calgary arena, to play the devil's advocate (and one could argue the UCP is the devil), the Saddledome is a municipally owned arena, and from what I understand, the new arena will be as well. The deal is still ridiculous, but it could be argued that the City should invest a fair amount.

In Ottawa's case, the Sens own their current arena in Kanata, and will own their new arena at (fingers crossed) LeBreton Flats. Furthermore, they have over 70 acres of land in Kanata, and 3 to 8 acres at LeBreton to help finance the arena. It would be much harder to justify a major investment by the City.

In any case, an NHL arena that can be used easily 100 nights per year is a far better investment than a CFL stadium.

[thurmas]

for Minneapolis it made some sense to go with the dome as NCAA final four hosting brings in a boatload of money and tourism as well as hosting a super bowl. Also it has allowed them to host more concerts. That circumstance doesn't exist in Canada which is why I would advise Montreal and Quebec to make the Big O an open air stadium again if they do proceed with renovations to make it as the home for the Alouettes and CF Montreal.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by esquire

If a US Bank-type stadium was on the table for Calgary then sure, we could have that conversation. But do we need to be reminded of the hunk of crap that Calgary was thinking about building at one point? This is basically the son of Fargodome but with a track around the field, it has nothing in common with US Bank or SoFi.

Controversial opinion: McMahon is a far better stadium than this proposal would have ever been. Shows you how little CSEG cares about the Stamps, honestly: let's include them in our new arena proposal solely so we can add the incentive of a fieldhouse.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by thurmas

for Minneapolis it made some sense to go with the dome as NCAA final four hosting brings in a boatload of money and tourism as well as hosting a super bowl. Also it has allowed them to host more concerts. That circumstance doesn't exist in Canada which is why I would advise Montreal and Quebec to make the Big O an open air stadium again if they do proceed with renovations to make it as the home for the Alouettes and CF Montreal.

If they found a way to actually use the stadium outside the NFL, good on them.

[thurmas]

When the Big O was designed in the 70s by Roger Taillbert it was modeled after his earlier design of Parc des Princes stadium in Paris. I think bringing the big O back to that earlier design but curtaining the upper deck like BC place in Vancouver and Mercedes Benz in Atlanta for MLS would work well.


https://en.parisinfo.com/guided-tour...e-Stadium-Tour

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=175JXH6N71w


https://www.ibm.com/sports/atlanta-stadium/

[elly63]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If they found a way to actually use the stadium outside the NFL, good on them.

That's kind of the whole idea for any stadium.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by thurmas

I think bringing the big O back to that earlier design but curtaining the upper deck like BC place in Vancouver and Mercedes Benz in Atlanta for MLS would work well.

As I posted earlier, that was the conclusion of The Bissonnette Report

[blueandgoldguy]

13 years ago, when BC started their replacement of the roof at BC Place, plus the massive renovations and updated earthquake proofing, the cost of was over $500 million Canadian. It was stated at the time that starting from scratch building a near-replica of BC Place would have been $1 billion...and that was 13 years ago so probably double the price now.

The Vikings began construction of their stadium nearly 10 years ago and the price tag was just under $1.1 billion US. I'm sure if they started construction now, that same stadium would be at least 50% more and probably closer to double the original price tag.

I remember some of the early proposals for Saskatchewan's domed stadium around 12 or so years ago and the estimates were around $400 - $450 million. And we know estimates are always under-estimates. Likely closer to a billion today. It's likely a 30,000 seat stadium would start at around $700 million and be closer to $1 billion when the inevitable cost overruns are taken into account. And as someone mentioned, the operating costs for US Bank Stadium are $28 million, so it's likely a 30,000 seat stadium would run in excess of $10 million and more likely $14 million annually. These things are not cheap to heat and cool!

Stadiums draw few events in the winter months and really not all that many in the summer, especially in a smaller city like Calgary. The cost of a dome is just not worth it.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

On the Calgary arena, to play the devil's advocate (and one could argue the UCP is the devil), the Saddledome is a municipally owned arena, and from what I understand, the new arena will be as well. The deal is still ridiculous, but it could be argued that the City should invest a fair amount.

In Ottawa's case, the Sens own their current arena in Kanata, and will own their new arena at (fingers crossed) LeBreton Flats. Furthermore, they have over 70 acres of land in Kanata, and 3 to 8 acres at LeBreton to help finance the arena. It would be much harder to justify a major investment by the City.

In any case, an NHL arena that can be used easily 100 nights per year is a far better investment than a CFL stadium.

https://www.facebook.com/654586748/p...I89LLzzqmpA9Ii

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

https://www.facebook.com/654586748/p...I89LLzzqmpA9Ii

Well, yeah. My analysis wasn't meant to be perfect . The deal should also come with revenue sharing, like a 50/50 split on naming rights, advertisement, parking, concessions.

In Ottawa, we've been sold a "waterfall" revenue scheme by the City and OSEG on Lansdowne. We know that hasn't worked out yet. Not sure anyone knows (outside the City and OSEG) how the those types of arena/stadium revenues are split. I think OSEG is responsible for maintenance and repairs, which is probably why they are asking to rebuild the entire venue.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

CFL could fix this by starting the in April or early may instead of waiting until hell freezes over the start the playoffs. I think its absolutely ridiculous they haven't made this change. But then again its the CFL and they aren't known for doing things that make sense. Who in gods name wants to go sit on a piece of plastic or metal bench in October and November in Canada? you wouldn't catch me dead at a Elks game post September.

I know most of you in here are the 55+ crowd but i'm telling you the CFL has to do something to attract a younger audience or they will be done in the next 20 years. I'm 36 and I've just lost interest at one point i was driving 3 hours each way to catch games and watched religiously on TV, The games are okay but the experience is awful, The product has over time become the werthers originals of the sports world. It's whole bland "look at our history, we have been around so long" marketing ploy is just washed up. The brass at the CFL have completely lost touch with the new generation and they rely so much on the traditional CFL fans who are 20 years away from non existence. The league can't survive off the consistency of the west forever even the prairie teams are declining, If sask isnt selling out grey cups were in trouble here.

And before you come at me with "the league is fine the way it is, leave it alone I remember back in 1993 when the yada yada yada..." You're the last ones the league should be worried about. I'm not trolling here at all. I truly believe its time for the CFL to evolve. The League isn't cool anymore the MLS is slaughtering it with the same 2nd level talent.

4.....down...football

XFL Merger

Ban cowbells and horns...because they sound stupid.

I'm 29 and I think you're way off base here.

Cold weather at the business end of the season is way better than cold weather at the start. People are already in the habit of going all season, and when it's a playoff game is WAY more attractive to go to than preseason or Game 1 of the season.

Regarding WPG having lower attendance for playoffs -a re playoff tix included in the SSH package? They are here in Hamilton, which means the team isn't faced with convincing people to pony up last minute. If they don't make the playoffs it's a credit for next year.

I know it gets colder in the Prairies, but October can be quite nice (or kinda shit). But... So can April. I'm a Toronto Arrows STH and thankfully we've gotten damn lucky so far, it's been a very cold wet spring. There's a little leeway to move kickoff up into may but, as many people have pointed, you're going up against the NHL playoffs until June.

I'd have 0 interest in 4 down or merger football. Being independent is part of the appeal to me. I wish we were even more different than American ball - we should be more like the AFL or GAA.

[O-tacular]

Looks like Smith's arena gambit isn't really paying off:

https://calgaryherald.com/news/polit...rena-deal-poll

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Well, yeah. My analysis wasn't meant to be perfect . The deal should also come with revenue sharing, like a 50/50 split on naming rights, advertisement, parking, concessions.

In Ottawa, we've been sold a "waterfall" revenue scheme by the City and OSEG on Lansdowne. We know that hasn't worked out yet. Not sure anyone knows (outside the City and OSEG) how the those types of arena/stadium revenues are split. I think OSEG is responsible for maintenance and repairs, which is probably why they are asking to rebuild the entire venue.

I heard Snoop Dogg might join Ryan Reynolds in buying the team. With such a large new ownership group I wonder how that will play into negotiations? (I think there's like 7 interested parties). Also, Flames are looking to reap all the rewards with zero expense or liability. Of course they want the city to maintain it. Then when Murray Edwards is 90 and the old Calgary Event Centre needs a new roof (for which the city will have already sunk millions into over the decades) he'll do the same song and dance and demand a new publicly funded gift for his sports franchise grift.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I heard Snoop Dogg might join Ryan Reynolds in buying the team. With such a large new ownership group I wonder how that will play into negotiations? (I think there's like 7 interested parties). Also, Flames are looking to reap all the rewards with zero expense or liability. Of course they want the city to maintain it. Then when Murray Edwards is 90 and the old Calgary Event Centre needs a new roof (for which the city will have already sunk millions into over the decades) he'll do the same song and dance and demand a new publicly funded gift for his sports franchise grift.

Snoop is actually in one of the competing groups. (Sparks)

[craner]

Well I can only speak for myself as one Calgarian but the UCP funding announcement has won my vote. I have to hold my nose because Danielle Smith is a complete nut case who I never would have voted for without this commitment.
I would never vote NDP either as I don’t agree with what they stand for.
I was considering voting Liberal or for an independent, or not voting at all. But now I don’t want to lose this arena deal or take the chance of the NDP tearing it up.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by craner

Well I can only speak for myself as one Calgarian but the UCP funding announcement has won my vote. I have to hold my nose because Danielle Smith is a complete nut case who I never would have voted for without this commitment.
I would never vote NDP either as I don’t agree with what they stand for.
I was considering voting Liberal or for an independent, or not voting at all. But now I don’t want to lose this arena deal or take the chance of the NDP tearing it up.

My faith has been shattered! Come on man!! We'll have to pay out of pocket to see a family doctor, but hey at least we'll have a shiny new sterile box to sip overpriced beer in. If you oppose the NDP I'm assuming you lean conservative. How on earth can you justify such corporate welfare and billionaires taking taxpayers to the cleaners like this?

Question: If it is revealed that Calgarians will have to foot the bill for all cost escalations would you still support it?