Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[craner]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm not sold on it. It would probably cost at least 50% more for a dome, and guaranteed within three years of the place opening people will be complaining about the poor atmosphere in a dome, 'why are you making me sit in a warehouse on a warm summer evening', etc. There is nothing about Alerus Center/Fargodome that seem appealing as a model for Calgary... They look like aircraft hangars with grandstands.

Football is meant to be played outdoors.

Hear! Hear! - totally agree with you here.
I don’t want to watch football in a dome.
Obviously a retractable roof is the ultimate - but if it’s a choice between fixed roof or no roof - give me no roof any day.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I hope Smith's blatant pandering smacks her in the face come election time:

https://globalnews.ca/news/9655801/f...cial-election/

I bet you do. You hope a lot of bad things happen to Smith.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by esquire

What is the real point of a domed stadium, though? The CFL and MLS seasons end before it gets truly too cold to be outside. The one MLB team here has a dome, so that's fine. I guess the NFL needs a dome if it's going to play in Canada right through January, but that is not on the horizon at all.

If Calgary gets a domed stadium, what will it use it for from November to June? You can hold track and field events in a much more modest fieldhouse without spending hundreds of millions on a roof for a stadium. The other stuff like car shows and home shows can just be held at a convention centre.

You’re totally right. We don’t play professional field sports in Canada in the winter. There is no need for a dome. Was the same in Winnipeg when we built our stadium. The knee jerk reaction is Winnipeg is cold it must need a dome. It would kill bombers attendance to be indoors in the summer and you could take the cost of a roof and build several community field houses for the same price as a roof to serve the amateur sports community.

[Djeffery]

Just look how many events get held in Skydome, BC Place and Olympic Stadium in the winter. It's not too many. Most stadium concert tours happen in summer. They are rare in the winter, except maybe in the deep south, where summer tours might start or finish. I don't think many of the trade shows that those domes host in the winter happen because the dome is there. I think they would just happen at other existing venues, so really the dome is just adding competition to the market in that space. The Toronto Auto Show expanded into the Skydome because it was a new novelty and it was next door but I don't think they do anymore. I think a dome in Calgary would be a waste of money that otherwise, as said, could improve recreational facilities elsewhere in the city.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Or, perhaps the commonwealth games will be the ticket to improving McMahon.

If Calgary gets a new arena AND upgrades to McMahon for the Games... Think it might be time Edmonton considers independence from Alberta.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by elly63

But even a Fargodome style stadium on the cheap can be vastly improved, translucent EEFE panels for instance would make a world of difference.

Mosaic Stadium at 33.3k seats came in at $310 million IIRC, original budget was 278 million. They had originally wanted a structure similar to the Tele2Arena in Stockholm. They figured the retractable roof would cost $100 million so it was taken off the table.

We know now that in the reality we are presently living in both Mosaic Stadium and IGF were overbuilt (each around 33k) Any new structure should fall in the 25-30k range.

Canadian facilities have always been utilitarian over American extravagance and size, obviously we are not looking at a 65k, one billion dollar building.

With that and even factoring in inflation I think you could bring in a retractable roof under 600 million, with a fixed roof of EEFE panels possibly less.

I disagree with your contention that IG Field is overbuilt. People occasionally say this because when IG Field opened, the Bombers were facing two major challenges: a) the team was horrendous, they were going through a years-long slump, and b) the NHL had just returned to the scene and took a lot of the pro sports spending in this city. Then as things were improving, covid struck.

But the situation has changed since then. Last season we saw the Bombers doing quite well at the box office, there were several games with crowds of 30,000 or more. I don't think the Bombers would have been better off with a domed stadium that holds 24,000. If anything, it would have made a lot of people less inclined to go to a game and enjoy a nice summer evening outside... this is a part of the overall appeal and you can't lose sight of that.

[O-tacular]

Calgary tackles housing crisis by spending $867 million on new home for the Flames

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2023/04...or-the-flames/

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't think the Bombers would have been better off with a domed stadium that holds 24,000. If anything, it would have made a lot of people less inclined to go to a game and enjoy a nice summer evening outside... this is a part of the overall appeal and you can't lose sight of that.

As per my posts, the Bombers weren't in the discussion as they already have a stadium. I did say 25-30k and IMO leaning to the higher number. I get the summer appeal (obviously) but it's no secret part of the reason for wanting a 10th team is to shorten the season. Attendance has lessened towards the end of the season. I haven't checked in the last few championship years but I do know (and I used to wonder) why Winnipeg playoff games had less attendance than the regular season. Also, I think it has come to pass that there are more people who want their creature comforts now than are the hale and hardy who enjoy a cold weather game.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Just look how many events get held in Skydome, BC Place and Olympic Stadium in the winter. It's not too many.

If that was the case Parc Olympiques wouldn't be stating in articles about how many days and opportunities they are missing by the unpredictability of not being able to host something because of the uncertainty of the roof.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by trueviking

You’re totally right. We don’t play professional field sports in Canada in the winter. There is no need for a dome.

Again this discussion isn't about Winnipeg specifically but before the last few years their attendance went down in the playoffs.

Back to the roof issue, it seems some here seem to have some misconceptions on the stadium cover issue. The NFL has five fixed roof stadiums (not counting retractable which is five more). Three of the fixed roof stadiums are amongst the four newest stadiums. Two are in hot weather climes and one is in cold. I think it would benefit us to learn about the latest technology and find out why it doesn't seem to bother these people as we consider where this could be a consideration ie Calgary or Montreal.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by elly63

As per my posts, the Bombers weren't in the discussion as they already have a stadium. I did say 25-30k and IMO leaning to the higher number. I get the summer appeal (obviously) but it's no secret part of the reason for wanting a 10th team is to shorten the season. Attendance has lessened towards the end of the season. I haven't checked in the last few championship years but I do know (and I used to wonder) why Winnipeg playoff games had less attendance than the regular season. Also, I think it has come to pass that there are more people who want their creature comforts now than are the hale and hardy who enjoy a cold weather game.

CFL could fix this by starting the in April or early may instead of waiting until hell freezes over the start the playoffs. I think its absolutely ridiculous they haven't made this change. But then again its the CFL and they aren't known for doing things that make sense. Who in gods name wants to go sit on a piece of plastic or metal bench in October and November in Canada? you wouldn't catch me dead at a Elks game post September.

I know most of you in here are the 55+ crowd but i'm telling you the CFL has to do something to attract a younger audience or they will be done in the next 20 years. I'm 36 and I've just lost interest at one point i was driving 3 hours each way to catch games and watched religiously on TV, The games are okay but the experience is awful, The product has over time become the werthers originals of the sports world. It's whole bland "look at our history, we have been around so long" marketing ploy is just washed up. The brass at the CFL have completely lost touch with the new generation and they rely so much on the traditional CFL fans who are 20 years away from non existence. The league can't survive off the consistency of the west forever even the prairie teams are declining, If sask isnt selling out grey cups were in trouble here.

And before you come at me with "the league is fine the way it is, leave it alone I remember back in 1993 when the yada yada yada..." You're the last ones the league should be worried about. I'm not trolling here at all. I truly believe its time for the CFL to evolve. The League isn't cool anymore the MLS is slaughtering it with the same 2nd level talent.

4.....down...football

XFL Merger

Ban cowbells and horns...because they sound stupid.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by craner

Hear! Hear! - totally agree with you here.
I don’t want to watch football in a dome.
Obviously a retractable roof is the ultimate - but if it’s a choice between fixed roof or no roof - give me no roof any day.

I completely disagree, you need to realize modern domed stadiums aren't rogers centre. Again this is the 55+ "football should be played outside, back in my day we sat on 2 feet of snow" mentality, You guys just cant embrace change and would rather see it dissolve than adapt. It's a slow cancer for the league and seeing you guys in denial about it is mildly frustrating, Open air stadiums are useless in this country November to April, how is that a good investment in the prairies? I'm sure Edmonton,Winnipeg,Sask and Calgary CFL fans would gladly "survive" in a 30k seat version of this.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

CFL could fix this by starting the in April or early may instead of waiting until hell freezes over the start the playoffs. I think its absolutely ridiculous they haven't made this change. But then again its the CFL and they aren't known for doing things that make sense. Who in gods name wants to go sit on a piece of plastic or metal bench in October and November in Canada? you wouldn't catch me dead at a Elks game post September.

I know most of you in here are the 55+ crowd but i'm telling you the CFL has to do something to attract a younger audience or they will be done in the next 20 years. I'm 36 and I've just lost interest at one point i was driving 3 hours each way to catch games and watched religiously on TV, The games are okay but the experience is awful, The product has over time become the werthers originals of the sports world. It's whole bland "look at our history, we have been around so long" marketing ploy is just washed up. The brass at the CFL have completely lost touch with the new generation and they rely so much on the traditional CFL fans who are 20 years away from non existence. The league can't survive off the consistency of the west forever even the prairie teams are declining, If sask isnt selling out grey cups were in trouble here.

And before you come at me with "the league is fine the way it is, leave it alone I remember back in 1993 when the yada yada yada..." You're the last ones the league should be worried about. I'm not trolling here at all. I truly believe its time for the CFL to evolve. The League isn't cool anymore the MLS is slaughtering it with the same 2nd level talent.

4.....down...football

XFL Merger

Ban cowbells and horns...because they sound stupid.

Tell me who wants to go to a game in April when it is still cold and the league is competing against the NHL playoffs.

I really have a hard time believing you were ever a fan to begin with if you advocate for four downs and an XFL merger.

For the league to want to adapt itself to people like you who will never go to a game is ridiculous. You don't try and sell beer to wine drinkers.

You might want to recheck MLS attendances in Canada as well as their abysmal TV ratings while CFL attendance in Montreal and Vancouver grew. You also seem to have no knowledge of what is being done in each market for new fan engagement.

Seems to me it's your generation that thinks everything is going to die in the coming years, I read in SI the CFL was supposed to die in the late 80s and somehow it is still here. Instead of the lame talking points you should do some actual research because your post comes off as something the trolls usually do produce.

If we took your advice: four downs, XFL merger, then it would truly be a second rate American league that can be directly compared to the NFL and everyone of them has failed (save the 60s AFL)

Can I assume you prefer vuvuzuelas to cowbells?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I completely disagree, you need to realize modern domed stadiums aren't rogers centre. Again this is the 55+ "football should be played outside, back in my day we sat on 2 feet of snow" mentality, You guys just cant embrace change and would rather see it dissolve than adapt. It's a slow cancer for the league and seeing you guys in denial about it is mildly frustrating, Open air stadiums are useless in this country November to April, how is that a good investment in the prairies? I'm sure Edmonton,Winnipeg,Sask and Calgary CFL fans would gladly "survive" in a 30k seat version of this.

He's right, much of the population is becoming increasingly pussified like his generation and need to be cocooned. I have no worries about the football product being attractive enough to gather fans but it's hard to battle the indoctrination of entitlement and bubble wrapping. To me this kind of stadium is the best for both worlds.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

This is U.S. Bank Stadium in Minneapolis, the example I think is most appropriate for Canada. Via Wikipedia here is some relevant info.

While the Vikings' owners wanted an outdoor stadium, the state and local governments would only provide funding for an indoor stadium capable of hosting major events like the Super Bowl and the Final Four. A retractable roof was the trend in 2010s football stadiums. However, retractable roof facilities are not typically designed for the roof to be opened and closed in sub-freezing conditions. When built in temperate climates, retractable roofs are generally kept closed throughout the winter months, both to reduce the stress on the roof and its components and also to reduce or eliminate the need to winterize the stadium's interior. In contrast, to be of any competitive on-field advantage to the Vikings, a retractable roof facility would have needed to be designed to operate in a Minnesotan winter so as to allow the Vikings to play a home game outdoors during the NFL playoffs. Eventually, this design was deemed too expensive.

Architecture firm HKS, Inc. decided to go for a lightweight translucent roof and glazed entrances with giant pivoting doors, aiming to get as much natural light from the outside as possible. The roof is made up of 60% Ethylene tetrafluoroethylene (ETFE), a fluorine-based clear plastic. ETFE's low R-factor and the roof's slanted design, inspired by Nordic vernacular architecture, allows the stadium to endure heavy snow loads. Snow accumulates in areas that are more safely and easily accessible, and also moves down the slanted roof into a heated gutter, the water from which drains to the nearby Mississippi River.

The translucent roof and large wall panels also give fans a view of downtown Minneapolis. The glass operable wall panels allow the stadium to experience some of the outdoor elements while providing protection from the snow, rain, and the cold winter weather.

An older, simpler model of this can be seen at the Forsyth Barr Stadium in Dunedin, New Zealand

[EpicPonyTime]

Sure, a US Bank Stadium would be lovely, but remind me how a CFL team is supposed to pay for that? Everyone wants a dome but the reality is no one in Canada is going to shell out the money for that.

I don't think it's a 55+ thing for people to champion sitting outside. It's a realism thing.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Sure, a US Bank Stadium would be lovely, but remind me how a CFL team is supposed to pay for that? Everyone wants a dome but the reality is no one in Canada is going to shell out the money for that.

I don't think it's a 55+ thing for people to champion sitting outside. It's a realism thing.

To be fair, he did say a 30k seat version of that. But that would still be well north of half a bil and I doubt that flies either.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Sure, a US Bank Stadium would be lovely, but remind me how a CFL team is supposed to pay for that? Everyone wants a dome but the reality is no one in Canada is going to shell out the money for that.

Football stadiums are terrible investments. Domed ones doubly so.

As a once in a couple generations gift to a league that is pretty marginal profit-wise (CFL), maybe a new open air stadium is fine. It sort of can be justified as a civic amenity. I'm not really big on gridiron football, so I'm pretty meh on the whole scheme.

It stings more to do this for the richest league in the world I imagine, but it seems unlikely we'll have to worry about that here.

A domed stadium in a city of less than several million people would be a white elephant. The one that even comes close to being used effectively and offering a decent value for money is SkyDome, and that was a fiasco. The others are travesties, value-wise.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Sure, a US Bank Stadium would be lovely, but remind me how a CFL team is supposed to pay for that? Everyone wants a dome but the reality is no one in Canada is going to shell out the money for that.

I don't think it's a 55+ thing for people to champion sitting outside. It's a realism thing.

If a US Bank-type stadium was on the table for Calgary then sure, we could have that conversation. But do we need to be reminded of the hunk of crap that Calgary was thinking about building at one point? This is basically the son of Fargodome but with a track around the field, it has nothing in common with US Bank or SoFi.

[thurmas]

Maintenance costs for us bank stadium are 28 million a year as per cbs Minneapolis wcco station. Vikings currently only cover 16 million a year so they will have to come up with a plan on it soon. That's why a fargodome or alerts center dome is easier to maintain.