Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by esquire

Ottawa is really hemming in the stadium to the point where it is taking on a Percival Molson Stadium character. They couldn't get the arena any closer to the end zone on that one end... is that really necessary?

We are at the point where the stadium is going to have barely more than half the seating capacity it had in the late 80s, with little room for temporary expansion. Seems kind of short sighted, especially given that there is room to put the arena somewhere else on the site.

Also, send those arena plans to Winnipeg... we need a rink just like that!

When Lansdowne Park was redeveloped ten years ago, the actual park was a key feature. We don't want to mess with the park too much, so the arena will be built where the berm is today, and will itself become the berm.

Looking at the space between the arena and field, and the space behind the future North Side Stands, maybe the west side where we currently have a terrace, I think it could be possible to add up to maybe 10k seats.

Today

http://pfsstudio.com/award-of-excellence-for-lansdowne-park/

Future

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/lansdowne-2-0-should-be-election-issue-menard-1.5885782

[esquire]

^ It just seems odd that there wouldn't be any provision for future end zone seating whatsoever in what is essentially a new stadium...

[thurmas]

It seems set in stone most canadian stadiums will always be in the 22 to 33 k seat range going forward.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

When Lansdowne Park was redeveloped ten years ago, the actual park was a key feature. We don't want to mess with the park too much, so the arena will be built where the berm is today, and will itself become the berm.

Looking at the space between the arena and field, and the space behind the future North Side Stands, maybe the west side where we currently have a terrace, I think it could be possible to add up to maybe 10k seats.
]

I don't think so. 10k seats is a lot. It's almost the size of the south side stands and the (new) north stands in the picture. Look at how big they are. I don't see how given that configuration that 10k seats could be added in the end zones and also somewhere along the north sidelines or edges.

I generally don't agree with reducing the stadium's capacity, and think it is basically right-sized at 24,000.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It just seems odd that there wouldn't be any provision for future end zone seating whatsoever in what is essentially a new stadium...

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think so. 10k seats is a lot. It's almost the size of the south side stands and the (new) north stands in the picture. Look at how big they are. I don't see how given that configuration that 10k seats could be added in the end zones and also somewhere along the north sidelines or edges.

I generally don't agree with reducing the stadium's capacity, and think it is basically right-sized at 24,000.

Maybe I'm overly optimistic. Underbuilding ourselves into a corner is kind of our thing here in Ottawa.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by ZeDgE

The 300 Million is not for there arena its for infrastructure in the area. Provincial money goes towards this kind of thing. I don't really get the outrage but whatever.

Pfff. The reality is that the money is going to the construction of the arena. Full stop. It doesn't matter what label they use to justify the expenditure.

[TimB09]

Originally Posted by thurmas

It seems set in stone most canadian stadiums will always be in the 22 to 33 k seat range going forward.

I'm ok with that. We aren't the NFL so there's no demand for 50-60k stadiums up here.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by TimB09

I'm ok with that. We aren't the NFL so there's no demand for 50-60k stadiums up here.

Even if a new MLB stadium gets built it probably won't crack 35,000. So really, unless there is a NFL team setting up shop somewhere or the Summer Olympics comes back, 35,000 or so is the realistic upper limit now.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by ZeDgE

The 300 Million is not for there arena its for infrastructure in the area. Provincial money goes towards this kind of thing. I don't really get the outrage but whatever.

Outrage because that infrastructure wouldn't be needed if the arena wasn't being proposed. All Albertans indirectly funding $300 million to support a billionaire's playground is outrageous.

[Coldrsx]

Is it? I am not sure why folks are surprised by this or outraged given precedent in N.A. and the current pitch of 'events' centre from an economic development standpoint.

[J.OT13]

Quite worried about the precedent this sets. Ottawa's dream of a new downtown arena could easily be quashed once again by a new owner making unrealistic demands, and a City making no efforts to try and offer anything at all (and of course, a Province that doesn't know we're part of the Province, so absolutely no funding available there).

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by Harrison

Outrage because that infrastructure wouldn't be needed if the arena wasn't being proposed. All Albertans indirectly funding $300 million to support a billionaire's playground is outrageous.

While I’m not in favour of this amount of public funds put towards the project, I’d argue your point that a lot of that infrastructure would not be needed. Perhaps the scale would not be required, but the overall goal of the city is for an entertainment district, and revitalize the downtown east side, money would be needed to be spent for the infrastructure, not necessarily to that scale… this investment will also support the current under construction new BMO center, as well as drastically improve the access to the current stampede grounds. Basically the infrastructure is needed for Calgary downtown revitalization, just not necessarily to the scale it is.

Though I am on board with you in that Murray Edwards got a steal with this deal.

[jonny24]

Does seem to be a bit underwhelming on the Ottawa north stand. Losing a roof and 3000 seats doesn't seem really ideal. And with it being so hemmed in it would be difficult to upgrade in the future.

I also thought they'd make better use of the arena spanning the end zone, and build a few tiers of clubs and suite with seats that could make use of sharing with the arena. A single balcony is pretty meh.

[Me&You]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Man Calgarians and Albertans you got bent and taken by Edwards sans lube lol. Sorry for the crudeness of my remarks but it's a pretty apt way to describe this deal.

Years ago, I remember many Calgarians on forums like CalgaryPuck poo-pooing publicly subsidized pro sports facilities in places like Edmonton and elsewhere...the taxpayer should not be subsidizing any of these facilities for rich billionaires! I would love to see how many of the same posters are now saying this is a fair deal for taxpayers. This has to be one of all-time fleecings with regards to pro sports stadiums and in Alberta no less - one of the wealthiest provinces in the country, with the highest average household incomes and arguably the corporate powerhouse of Western Canada. This is the best they could do in negotiating with Edwards?!

I also laugh at those that downplay the province's contribution saying that this was necessary infrastructure that would have happened anyways. Yeah, that parkade right next to the future arena would have been totally necessary without it...and no doubt, the Flames will probably derive all the parking revenue on game days and for all the concerts and other events taking place at the new arena.

The indoor/outdoor plaza will likely be unavailable to the general public for a significant portion of its existence...I wouldn't be surprised if there was an occasional cover charge there.

The "community" arena will likely be available to the public to use 10% of the time as it will almost certainly be utilized as a practice rink for the Flames/Hitmen/Wranglers. Meanwhile, many (or all?) of the street improvements related to vehicles/mass transit are happening to accommodate excess arena traffic that would not have otherwise existed.

I never thought it was possible for the corporate powerhouse of Calgary to get bilked worse than Edmonton and Quebec City for taxpayer dollars, yet those are the facts based on a preliminary glance at this deal.

You seem really hung up and surprised by the idea that Edwards out-negotiated the city and the province... Your emphasis on the business community seems at odds with your position.

What exactly did you expect? Regardless of your feelings towards him, it's undeniable that Murray Edwards is one sharp cookie... Being surprised that the city and province (Danielle Smith - ha!) were out-negotiated by Edwards is like acting surprised if an NHL team crushes a pee-wee team.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Me&You

You seem really hung up and surprised by the idea that Edwards out-negotiated the city and the province... Your emphasis on the business community seems at odds with your position.

What exactly did you expect? Regardless of your feelings towards him, it's undeniable that Murray Edwards is one sharp cookie... Being surprised that the city and province (Danielle Smith - ha!) were out-negotiated by Edwards is like acting surprised if an NHL team crushes a pee-wee team.

How complicated could it really be? Edwards' position really boils down to give me money for a new arena or I move the team. The province just has to call the bluff. I think it's fairly clear that Calgary is a lucrative NHL market, if Edwards did allow the team to move to Houston or San Diego or wherever, then we know it wouldn't be long before another team made its way to Calgary very quickly.

I find it incredible that the home of grassroots "we hate corporate welfare" conservatism would so enthusiastically embrace such a shitty deal. At least with Edmonton a big-time civic inferiority complex kind of helped rationalize their bad deal. But Calgary has no such hangups. It's truly amazing.

[O-tacular]

Worth mentioning that 3 municipal elections had this issue looming in the background and CSEC even tried to prop up a fake candidate to get the deal done and lost to Nenshi each time. Gondek was viewed as his successor, but I think she got spooked after CSEC pulled the plug on the deal right after she got into office. Idiots blamed her. Still no excuse for this pile of dogshit though. No wonder they were so insistent on closed door negotiations. The public would be up in arms over this fleecing.

Also hilarious that Smith openly opposed provincial money going to Edmonton’s arena. She’s not even hiding the vote buying. Literally made this a ballot issue.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

When Lansdowne Park was redeveloped ten years ago, the actual park was a key feature. We don't want to mess with the park too much, so the arena will be built where the berm is today, and will itself become the berm.

Looking at the space between the arena and field, and the space behind the future North Side Stands, maybe the west side where we currently have a terrace, I think it could be possible to add up to maybe 10k seats.

If the arena is to be replaced, why does it have to stay at Lansdowne at all?

It would be convenient for people used to going there for hockey games and other sports events, and maybe help support some of the businesses, though the commercial portion of the "park" has always seemed like a better-designed big-box retail complex to me.

Could it go somewhere like Carleton University? Just looking at the satellite view there's a large open area and parking lots on the north side of campus. Parking needs could be incorporated into the design rather than trying to bury the arena under a mound and account for the additional roof loads that would entail. Carleton also has the advantage of being on an O-Train line.

And if the plan is to keep games happening in the stadium during construction (?) temporary stands in the east end zone could offset some of the capacity lost when the north side is torn down.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

If the arena is to be replaced, why does it have to stay at Lansdowne at all?

It would be convenient for people used to going there for hockey games and other sports events, and maybe help support some of the businesses, though the commercial portion of the "park" has always seemed like a better-designed big-box retail complex to me.

Could it go somewhere like Carleton University? Just looking at the satellite view there's a large open area and parking lots on the north side of campus. Parking needs could be incorporated into the design rather than trying to bury the arena under a mound and account for the additional roof loads that would entail. Carleton also has the advantage of being on an O-Train line.

And if the plan is to keep games happening in the stadium during construction (?) temporary stands in the east end zone could offset some of the capacity lost when the north side is torn down.

As you alluded to, it's all about keeping the entertainment district of Lansdowne busy. The City is jumping through hoops to accommodate OSEG (owners of the sports teams and commercial portion). For sure, there are better locations for the arena, and the stadium for that matter, but they want to prop-up what's at Lansdowne today and eventually recover the costs through the "windfall" arrangement.

The idea is to build everything in stages:

1. Complete new arena;
2. Demolish Civic Centre and North Side stands;
3. Build new North Side stands, parking, retail and residential towers.

Not sure what the plan is for the one or two summers where we'll be left with a half stadium. They could add minimal temporary seating at both end-zones.

[Denscity]

10000 seat amphitheater coming to the PNE in Vancouver.

[O-tacular]

Nenshi with a blistering takedown of Smith:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/naheed-n...expectations-not-in-a-good-way-1.6372060